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The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
Dobbsy
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:15 am 
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How to deal with jetpacks 101:

BEFORE you declare an engagement measure the distance to the suits for engagement and add 10cm. That's your engagement range. if you're inside that you'll be in assault. If you're not inside - don't declare your engaging - advance and fire at them and set up for next turn. The worst that can happen is the Suits will move out of range again... but you'll be forcing them back and playing to your plan.

For those who don't pre-measure, shoot something at them to get an idea of the engagement range. You should be trying to lay blast markers on them before engaging anyway... If you're out of range do what I mentioned above. Advance and shoot. This will give you a way of ranging-in on them AND laying BMs

Seriously, this isn't rocket science folks. The rule isn't broken. Ways of dealing with them just need to be practiced.

And E&C - most armies have teleport troops of some sort be it planetfall etc etc. Putting troops behind them isn't that hard. You don't always need to go head on with transports. Heck air assault is possible too and the tau jetpacks can't do jack in this case because air assault range is inlimited...
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:56 pm 
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And E&C - most armies have teleport troops


Those teleport troops can't CC the suits (Due to the ZOC).

And you need to win the strategy roll in order to attempt the use of such a strategy too... in addition, you're probably then comitting 800+pts against a single crisis formation which has a decent chance of happily skipping away and leaving your terminators foot slogging in the midfield for the rest of the game.

The rule isn't broken. Ways of dealing with them just need to be practiced.
It is broken. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 28 2007,19:56)
QUOTE
And E&C - most armies have teleport troops


Those teleport troops can't CC the suits (Due to the ZOC).

Why do you need to CC them?

Teleporting Swooping Hawks, Terminators, Necrons all have decent FF attacks as well.  Heck Swoops could probably *surround* the Crisis Suits!  *laugh*

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:34 pm 
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Why do you need to CC them?


Because until two hours ago (When I read the latest v. of the list) they had MWFF attacks.

That meant that they'd get a couple of MW hits (Against most targets that's a couple of kills), whilst their mighty 3+ armour save would deflect two thirds of the enemy's hits... until the latest iteration of the list Crisis Suits were actually a very potent auxillary FF formation due to the combination of 'jump back' and FFMW attacks.

The same problem remains with first strike FF attacks on the stealth suits... they overperform in FF as compared to the intended anti-ff bias of the list.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Those teleport troops can't CC the suits


Who said anything about CC? You just need to interrupt their jump back space... if they're forced to jump sideways your engage range hasn't changed....

Let me ask you this..

When you want to engage any other type of unit and you're out of engage range what do you do?

It is broken
Yep a broken record...
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:33 pm 
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When you want to engage any other type of unit and you're out of engage range what do you do?


Either:

a - Manuever into a favourable assault position for next turn.

or

b - Shoot them with ranged weapons



Now for Tau:

a - Doesn't work, as they'll jump-pack escape to FF range pretty much regardless.

and

b - Doesn't work, as trying to trade ranged-fire with the Tau is a fool's game.




In most of my vs Tau games, I have to largely ignore the suits and pepper them with the ocasional shot when the opportunity arises, because to kill them you have to commit so many resources to take them down that you end up hamstringing the rest of your battle plan.


Now Crisis suits have lost their MWFF attack, it may make sense to FF them a bit more often now.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:02 pm 
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Now for Tau:

a - Doesn't work, as they'll jump-pack escape to FF range pretty much regardless.

and

b - Doesn't work, as trying to trade ranged-fire with the Tau is a fool's game.

a- it does work because I've had it used against me... If they're FFing -here's an idea. USe a heavy FF formation...

What troops do you normally try to assault with? foot infantry?? That's not such a bright idea.... Do you not take any troops that move 25cm+? Take no infiltrators? Take no teleport troops? Take no air assault? If not what do you use ... harsh language? :D

As to losing units in assault to MW FF(old list) are you expecting to take no casualties what-so-ever? if so I think you should stick with chess.... :D Hell, they have a 5+FF - that's not a super stat line in FF....

and

b- how much fire do you put on them? The crisis suits aren't even the heaviest shooters... they have 1 AP and 1 AT shot. Even the old list they only had the above and a 15cm MW attack.... Are you shooting them with only 4 unit formations?? I fail to understand how you could not out-shoot them... Also, if it's you're turn and you're shooting they can't fire! why not wait till they've moved and then advance to shoot them? Do you not take artillery?

I seriously think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here...
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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:16 pm 
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they overperform in FF as compared to the intended anti-ff bias of the list.


Bwahahahaha!  I seem to recall stating the perception of the Tau being unfit for firefights was wrong... ABOUT 2 YEARS AGO!

Nice to see someone else finally came to a similar conclusion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:35 pm 
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Yeah well, I've been saying for a while that CS should just give in, drop the second ranged shot from Fire Warriors, give them FF4+, and admit that the Tau can do Engagements just like anyone else. :D

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:28 am 
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I seem to recall stating the perception of the Tau being unfit for firefights was wrong...

Maybe your dice love you more, Neal, ?but I've yet to see outstanding performance in FF from Tau. Sure there's the odd time but usually involves my opponent rolling badly... Over-performing? Now that deserves a "Bwahahahaha!" :D

and admit that the Tau can do Engagements
Of course they can do engagements. But so can gretchin. :;):
The thing is who in their right mind would engage with small formations that might hit a few times?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:19 am 
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The only way to solve this is in three steps.

Step 1) I come back to the UK early and meet E&C in a secret location.

Step 2) Kidnap CS, take him to said location

Step 3) Give him a variety of armies then play him with Tau for a week solid

If we are right with our complaints we get changes, if not we hand ourselves into the police!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:38 am 
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Or we could just kidnap CS like you say, but then torture him until he gives us his forum password...

I totally met a GW store manager who said he bumped into CS's missus a few weeks ago... I had no idea that CS was UK based.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:48 pm 
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:D Yes, UK based. So, does that mean that my wife is more famous than I am!?  :p  Now THAT is wierd.

Anyway, I exist just North of London. Do I type with an American accent?

Was the store manager Plaza, Oxford St?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:59 pm 
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Nope, Brent Cross.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: The Jetpack rule is 'broken'
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:14 pm 
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Ah yes, my 'local'.  :D  I am trying to get a few Epic games organised there for the run up to Christmas. Joe has just been talked into picking up some Eldar, and the new Manager has a large IG army. Interested? I thought about attempting to put my old Orks into service. We have probably passed each other in the store!  :cool:

(Going a little off topic here... but what the hell, I am the mod!  :;): )

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