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Streamlined Titan list
Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:40 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 23 2007,04:56)
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Navy - ad mech have their own, it isn't allied.

This one's always interested me about the fan lists and every list since Swordwind that I can find. The core 3 lists (Space Marines, IG and Orks) buy spacecraft as core or support formations. Every list since Swordwind buys  them as allies. Anyone know why it was changed?

For the AMTL I'd like to see them as Support formations, not Allies (If ever there were a force which can field plenty of spacecraft it's the Ad Mech after all!) I don't think they'd be particularly unbalancing in that regard since they can only activate once and probably wouldn't have the capacity to planetfall much if anything. Other aircraft should really be restricted % wise if only to avoid ending up with something like 1 Warlord, 2 Reavers, 2 Sentinel Cohorts and 4 Thunderbolt squads or the like.

Though I'd like to see the Ad Mech aircraft formations be larger then the standard aircraft formations for the IG, seeing as they'd likely have easier aircraft access then the IG do and more air support since the air support in the Armageddon campaign was virtually non-existent. Maybe 3 aircraft to a formation instead of 2, that'd probably be sufficient to make them feel appropriately beefy without being too good. Cut down on the 'buy extra activations by purchasing lots of aircraft' too.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:57 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 23 2007,11:40)
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This one's always interested me about the fan lists and every list since Swordwind that I can find. The core 3 lists (Space Marines, IG and Orks) buy spacecraft as core or support formations. Every list since Swordwind buys ?them as allies. Anyone know why it was changed?

I believe it's more of a "layout" thing than an "allies" thing... Orks can only spend 1/3 of their points on Aircraft, Gargants, and Spacecraft, mirroring the Eldar Swordwind restrictions, it's just visually laid out differently.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:30 pm 
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Flyers are "allies" to prevent an all-flyer army.
The only one which can do so are Space Marines :D But it isn't really worthwile.

And:
If ever there were a force which can field plenty of spacecraft it's the Ad Mech after all!


Sorry...what? The AM is all about technology and giant war machines. Not flyers or spacecrafts. The Imperial Navy is flyers and spaceships.

The AM might be an empire in the Imperium but that they have spaceships and their own flyers is the same situation as why Space Marines have them too.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:29 am 
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Yes, but the AM also build almost all those space craft. If anyone's going to have the capacity to produce and field them on a semi-regular basis, it's likely to be them. The Space Marines come close as well, but not as heavily as I recall. But, really, I tend to picture space ships coming part and parcel with Titans, as the handler ships are necessary to move the titans around much more so then the IG or Space Marine Battle Barges (Transporting 500 Marines on a starship compared to 2-3 titans, for instance). But that's just the feeling I got.

The Ork Horde rules claim "Up to one third may be spent on aircraft or Gargants" no mention of spacecraft at all. The 'Spacecraft take up the 1/3 allied forces section' started with Eldar, as far as I can tell, and has continued since then for reasons I'm not entirely sure of. The three forces in Swordwind it kindof makes sense for, Eldar have plenty of starships but they usually only fly one or two to a planet, set up a wraithgate there and use that to transport troops directly from their craftworld as I recall. The Siegemasters are Siegemasters, and don't really have much call for using starships. And  the Feral Orks are Feral Orks and probably shouldn't have any starships at all!  :laugh:

But almost all of the 'new' lists call for starships out of the 1/3 allies instead of being support formations the way they are for those three. I'd like to see AMTL have them as a Support instead of an Allies formation, myself. It fits with the concept that the handler ships are virtually always on hand in order to have brought the titan to that world, IMHO. Aircraft should definitely still remain allied formations in general, though.
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Pariah Press
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:53 am 
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I'm going to pipe up in favor of the Knights.  They generally run along ahead and charge headlong into battle, slaying monsters before they get killed themselves.  I say, MORE KNIGHTS!  Lancers and Errants would be good.  

 I'd move Warhound packs into the support section, to prevent all-Warhound armies.

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Pariah Press
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:24 am 
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I don't mean that you should be able to take greater numbers of Knights, just that you should have a slightly greater number of choices as to which type of Knight you want to field.  I'm not saying, "Open the floodgates!  We need Leman Russes, Land Raiders, Capitol Imperialises, etc." just, y'know, Lancers and Errants.   :blush:

 I understand that this is the Divisio Militaris list, of course, but each Titan Legion usually has access to several Knight Households (as per Titan Legions - Codex Titanicus), who can disrupt the enemy while the "Big Boys" concentrate on getting the real work done.  

 [Off-Topic]I envision a Knight World list as one with bunches of Knights combined with hordes of cheap infantry and cavalry.  The Knights would play a completely different role in that type of army than they would in the Divisio Militaris army.[/Off-Topic]

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:22 am 
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Are knights part of the Ad Mechs military wing? I thought they were an allied force?

Anway - unless you want to cripple yourself activation wise I can't see anyone having more than two activations of knights. Most will have none. How much variety should that entail?

Fluff wise 2nd ed made them common, 1st ed had them as somewhat uncommon and 3rd ed quietly dropped them. What do you think knight background should be?

But as I've said earlier in the thread it matters little at this stage. The titan weapons list leaves an opening for an assault orientated knight so the actual composition of that option doesn't matter currently. Far more important is the system of building titans. It boils down to this one (which has had the most testing), Blargs one (which is sorta tested as it shares some similarities) and ditching them altogether and having half a dozen set patterns of Titan, prob 3 Warlords, 3 Reavers and 2 Warhounds (matching model availability).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:52 am 
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You might consider making Knights a 0-1 choice, with the option being 3 of either Paladins, Lancers or Errants for 325 points. That way you maintain that knights are relatively rare-ish, but common enough to see them alongside Titans with reasonable regularity. You might up the Paladins to 5 or 3 Lancers/Errants and make Paladins marginally worse then the others to give them the 'line troops vs specialist troops' style. But that's more nitpicky then anything else.
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Pariah Press
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:52 am 
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Are knights part of the Ad Mechs military wing? I thought they were an allied force?


The distinction is merely semantic, in my opinion.  I'll throw some quotes from official material at you, and leave it to you to decide what the answer is, and whether it's important.  

"When the Titan Legions march to war contingents from the Knight Worlds fight with them.  Each noble family sends their own formation of armoured warriors called a Knight Household." -Titan Legions - Codex Titanicus, p. 27

"Thus units of Knights are often fielded by Titan Orders and Imperial Guard." -White Dwarf 126, p. 30.

"House Krast: This Knight Household fights for the Legio Metalica....  Every Titan Legion can call on the services of many different Knight Households..."

The relationship probably varies from Forge World to Forge World.  Some might use their Knights as vassals, while others might be allies.  

Anway - unless you want to cripple yourself activation wise I can't see anyone having more than two activations of knights. Most will have none. How much variety should that entail?

I just want the choice to cripple myself with Lancers, that's all!   :D

Fluff wise 2nd ed made them common, 1st ed had them as somewhat uncommon and 3rd ed quietly dropped them. What do you think knight background should be?

In 3rd edition they are mentioned in the Eye of Terror Codex.  Six households are mentioned as being "notable Adeptus Mechanicus" forces on p. 16.  

I'm more of the second edition man, myself.  I like the idea of the Adeptus Mechanicus maintaining their autonomy by using their own planets, the Knight Worlds, for the supply of the Forge Worlds.

But as I've said earlier in the thread it matters little at this stage. The titan weapons list leaves an opening for an assault orientated knight so the actual composition of that option doesn't matter currently. Far more important is the system of building titans.

All right.  I'll keep my peace about the Knights until you iron out the higher-priority items.  I just wanted to pipe up because you specifically mentioned that only one other person had come to their defense.  

It boils down to this one (which has had the most testing), Blargs one (which is sorta tested as it shares some similarities) and ditching them altogether and having half a dozen set patterns of Titan, prob 3 Warlords, 3 Reavers and 2 Warhounds (matching model availability).

Well, the system you've presented works fine for my collection, so you'll hear no complaints from me.  

I've glanced over Blarg's system, but haven't looked too deeply at it.  It impresses me as being fascinatingly, er, 1st edition.  It presents a lot of fun conversion opportunities.  

Set patterns strike me as unnecessarily boring.  Custom titans are really a must for the Divisio Militaris list; anything else simply wouldn't be worth doing, in my opinion.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:37 pm 
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I can agree with having set Titan patterns for other armies, but for me the one of the major reasons to have a dedicated AMTL list is to be able to change the weapons load for Titans.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:52 pm 
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Then prepare to playtest 100 or so combinations....

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Fredster4050
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:22 pm 
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I'm joining this debate a bit late and I've already posted more detail on Blarg's thread, but the essence of my post is that I doubt you can make an AMTL list work for E:A.
For Titans to interact appropriately in E:A my view is they have to be toned down considerably as every experience I've had with them leads to far too much battlefield domination, they are simply too powerful.

IMHO to make them work they should have their RA removed and weapons should be toned down, the problem is they are reflecting the fluff more than a decent game mechanic at present.

Personally I would like to see the development of AT3 to allow a more detailed Titan vs Titan game
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:13 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 28 2007,13:52)
QUOTE
The only one I've seen as being particularly problematic was the Quake Cannons as they have no draw-backs (asside from being support weapons) compared to the MRLs, so if you have 2 reavers in a force with one sporting 2 tac weapons and the other being supporting you may as well give the support one a pair of Quakes and a CLP rather then a pair (or trio) of MRLs! But a chance to Quakes being Slow-Firing or something similar would more then fix that, I think, making them more useful as a 'pound things flat' ability while the MRLs are good for massed fire and BM placement.

Edit: Any chance we can get an updated PDF with the changed weapon stats in it if you changed them? Just for reference purposes more then anything else.

I'm trying to do a changelog first.

This is the weapon changes incidentally.
Quake - 120 range, MW3BP, Slow fire. Blarg thinks this should be the stats and it kinda fits the 'family' of BP weapons.
More importantly the BP table means if you ain't 3BP you don't scale, which is important for a free choice system.
Note this is assuming the MW BP change. If it doesn't not sure if it is support enough. Peoples thoughts?
Plasma Destructor - Now 6xMW5+ Slow Fire
In essence you have scout weapon excellent when doubling, tactical weapon good against heavy armour, okay when doubling, good for assault titan and support weapon which is great when sustaining (double, advance, sustain, geddit)
There are alternatives of course. Could make it lose slow fire and adjust appropiately and so on.
Plasma Cannon - Corrected typo
Vulcan - 5x
Ret-con ? Inferno Gun
Due to the impractibility of dealing with large amounts of Promethium alongside plasma reactors, titans assigned to fight in areas of thick cover utilise their reactors to generate similar effects. Plasma is vented continuously in a stream, mixing with air and igniting it. Though lacking the raw power and range of traditional plasma based attacks it does cover a wider area and is unaffected by ammunition constraints.
30cm 3BP Ignore Cover, Disrupt
Alternatively 30cm, 3BP, MW
It goes to 3BP to scale then its a mater of boosting the weapon. 45cm/ignore cover is one way, or theres disrupt as above or as it is a plasma based wepaon it could go to MW (I mean it can't really be fuel, it would need a tanker with it!)

If you like you can see part of one of the spreadsheets that plot all this. They are 3? years old and done originally by Dafrca I think. I've used to compare the number of hits over 3 turns to get an idea of their power, then factor in range, assault etc in my head.

However i have just realised this is all going off topic so I'll move it (or a mod can) to my armylist thread when i get back.

Edit - I made a mistake on the spreadsheet when i was cutting and pasting - as it all scaled no big change, but it does explain why suddenly plasma weapons were looking better :)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:25 am 
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Well, you know, they do have those great whomping big tanks on the outside of the Inferno Guns full of fuel which are like a good 10-20 feet tall and 40 feet long!  :laugh:

But seriously, I can see it being plasma-based perhaps. I'd recommend steering clear of MW attacks for warhounds which aren't slow firing. I imagine if a 3 BP, MW attack with 30cm range went through lots of people would rather field that then the Plasma Blastgun. So I'd recommend Ignore Cover, Disrupt for it. That gives it a solid purpose compared to the MRL as well (Shorter range, but good at flushing folks out of cover and breaking them). You might consider making the ones for battle titans be Ignore Cover, MW. With the same BP and Range, claiming that their larger plasma reactors can funnel off more energy to fuel the inferno guns. Either that or up their range to 45cm and keep Ignore Cover and Disrupt.

As a final possibility you might make them AP 3+/AT 5+ flamer-templates with Ignore Cover and Disrupt for Warhounds and make them 3 BP, 30cm range, Ignore Cover and Disrupt for non-Warhounds. That makes them substantially shorter range for warhounds and means that they no longer languish quite so badly compared to VMBs, as they'd then be better at placing blast markers then the VMB is against most things. Basically halving their range for the rights to have Disrupt and Ignore Cover compared to the VMB. Similar effect comparing the MRL and the Inferno Gun for Reavers/Warlords. Half range, Disrupt and Ignore Cover.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:40 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 28 2007,16:25)
QUOTE
Well, you know, they do have those great whomping big tanks on the outside of the Inferno Guns full of fuel which are like a good 10-20 feet tall and 40 feet long!  :laugh:

Those are the tanks for doing the plasma/air mix :)

Ah, that was the Battle Titan weapon, hadn't looked at scout titan weapons yet :)

The comparison is with the 3bp MRL.
45cm/Ignore cover doesn't work as that means a Reaver can move one range band faster than the MRl and hit targets in cover (where infantry often are) just as well at +5cm range. And if it does sustain it is better at hitting.

Plus with the elastic range of epic and a landing pad 90cm for the gun looks a little much :)

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