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Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
Markconz
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:07 am 
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Ah already in progress I see.... good stuff :)

I look forward to seeing the nuts and bolts of this work placed into a pdf or other document for game use.

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M4jumbo
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:28 pm 
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I think by making it required that the AMTL player has to spend at least 50% of his points on battle titans should be sufficient to make titans the emphasis of the army list.  Yes, you are correct in that the AMTL 2.0 list is too scattered, but taking away any and all secondary support like infantry and armored vehicles is taking too literal of an approach.  I think that an all titan & knight army will be too vulnerable to assymetrical opposing forces.  (Think of the Battle of Pelennor Fields in the third LOTR movie where the giant elephants get taken down by the mass of cavalry.)  I seriously doubt that the AM would allow their beloved titans to go into the field without being supported by bullet and bomb catchers... er, I mean infantry and armor.


I think this is a good approach.  I think there needs to be infantry in the list because even Titans need support to be effective.   Oh sure, "How much like a god he (the Titan) is..." but it's boots on the ground that hold the objectives.

As noted, limiting support infantry and armor to 50% or the 33% "allies" would do a good job keeping the list focused on Titans.  

Also, keeping the available infantry and armor to a very limited list of choices would probably help keep things focused on the Titans as well.  By not providing an abundance of choices, it further relagates infantry and armor to a support role.

Looking forward to some fresh movement on this list.

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:35 pm 
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One of the earliest discussions we had on AMTL was multiple Titan weapon configurations vs free weapon choices.  I would like the Titan weapon configurations option as this would add to the options available to IG & SM lists (even if only allowed for future lists).

I also think it would be easier to playtest say half a dozen Titan weapon configurations than to playtest a near infinite number of combinations if we allow complete free choice.

I like the idea of warhounds not being in the 50% battle titan choice. Fits in with background fluff (was it when the Traitor warhounds went rogue at Istvaan drop massacres?). And noone can complain about the number of compnay choices if have choice of several different configurations of Warlords and Reavers. How many company choices do Siegemasters have?

I would like to keep tanks, infantry, SHT's, Ordinati all in AMTL list. Putting them in 33% allies choice seems fine. Many AMTL players may not take many SHT's but think important to have the option, even if in limited numbers or at the cost of other support formations.

Like the idea of having to take Paladins before can take other knights. Prevents people cherry picking say Knights Errant or Castellan. Not sure whether Knights should be in list of support formations or 33% allies. I think if Knights are in 33% allies allowance then will be seen less often.  So lean to being a support formation.

Cheers

James

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:49 am 
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How many company choices do Siegemasters have?


Two, and they're both identical except one has a supreme commander in it.

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Pariah Press
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:52 am 
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Should Crusaders/Castellans/Wardens be allowed?  Didn't they usually stay home to guard the Knight World while the young Paladins/Lancers/Errants went off crusadin'?

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Fredster4050
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:09 pm 
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Well done Blarg for picking up what is possible one of the most difficult lists to balance.

I hesitate to say but when GW first released AT it was designed to be Titan on Titan combat and as much as I want Titans to be part of E:A's future I'm not sure it is achievable. Don't get me wrong I would love to see it but even though Epic plays in one scale I believe that there are 2 scales at work here.

Firstly there is the AFV/Inf. scale which most lists follow with a nod at some W/E's, however W/E's are fairly simplistic in their use which keeps them functioning 'safely' within the scale.

However if you really want Titans to reflect the fluff then it should play out like the new apocalypse rules, with them blowing huge chunks out of opposing forces unless they come up against any other Titan's/large W.E.'s, in which case warfare at Titan scale is dealt with in a different way.

As I fortunately own a copy of every Epic rules set I recently reflected on Titans ?invlovement in Epic from 1988 to present and there is a running theme of how you balance out the fluff against the rules mechanic.
Andy C & Jervis really struggled with this concept, so much so that they wrote quite significantly about it every time a new rules set was published.
Either way you are going to upset or annoy swathes of players on either side of the fence.

To keep Titans within the confines of E:A you have to keep them simple and in my estimation underpowered to allow AFV/Inf. to have any hope. With the Tournament (non-AMTL) lists givng fixed weapon options this helps to reduce their appeal.
Once you start working out the multiple options available to AMTL armies I think you begin to bleed the two scales together with unintended consequences.

The current range of options through AMTL allows a much higher degree of customisation than other forces. In recent AMTL games I have been able to load my Titans in such a way as significant problems to my opponent based on what force he agreeed to take and much more effectively than the typical 'always take artillery vs horde' approach. My opponents have dealt with the support units well enough but the Titans have always sewn up the game for me, their battlefield projection is much more significant.

In order for Titans to interact appropriately at the AFV/Inf scale I believe they are going to need watering down quite considerably, however this flies in the face of what people FEEL they should do.

At my club we are working up rules for AT3 to allow us to use Titans as we belive they should play, unfortunately the cost will be ruling out anything that isn't a W/E as we have made ajudgement that smaller units just won't have the right effect.

I will of course fully support and play test anything that is published but I believe this will be one of the hardest lists to get right both in terms of mechanic and expectation.

On another issue the large vehicles such as Capitol Imperialis etc were referred to as 'Praetorians' previously, Ordinatus was specific to the AM engines of war.
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Fredster4050
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:07 am 
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The AMTL with their concentration on large war engines are rather vulnerable to either massed TK fire or being swamped by INF and AV; all of their eggs are in one basket.


What is the concentration of TK weaponry in other armies, it would appear to me that the highest % of TK weapons that do the highest % of multi-damage shots are in the Imperial armies!!

I appreciate what you are saying, however I believe that since Space Marine, Titans have had to be shoe-horned into the Epic scale and in doing so we have lost the ability to make a game which really focusses on what it means to command Titans.

This list will be about getting the balance right for the other armies in E:A but I think we will need ?AT3 to have a game that can really reflect Titan command and combat
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:36 am 
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Right now I'd say the best TK weapons are in the Eldar army to be honest. Long range, high power, only 1 damage each for the Phantom Pulsars but with 2 shots each they still do better then volcano cannons on average rolls. And the Cobras are just sickening. Orks can field absurd numbers of Supa-Zzap Gunz (At least they -could- not sure they still can, haven't payed much attention to them lately). It's true the IG have lots of TK weapons, but plenty of others exist if people bother to take them.

Space Marines and Chaos seem to have the lowest concentration of TK weapons (Space Marines have none in their core army, Chaos has only those on the daemon prince and greater daemons as far as I'm aware). Tau have them on their aircraft/support craft as I recall, tyranids have a number of melee ones though I don't think they have any ranged ones.

Generally one of the things I've liked most about the AMTL has been their durability, to be honest. The titans feel like one-model armies to me, able to firefight, melee and shoot with the best of them and extremely durable against most forms of attack. Which really seems the most appropriate way for them to be represented, that the best (more or less) answer to Titans in most lists is to bring your own super-heavies of some type. And that, at least to me, seems to be in keeping with the 'theme' of Titans as neigh-unstoppable war engines which require either equally powerful war-engines or a whole lot of weaker things to beat.

For the record: I for one believe that detail does not by necessity make for a better game. For instance: In real life something like 50% of all return-fire during a city fight is friendly units shooting other friendly units because they're not sure who/what they are. I don't think ANYONE wants to see a 50/50 chance to inflict firefight attacks on your OWN models in an assault, do they? Some abstraction (Infact quite a bit to be honest) is a -good- thing and makes the games run smoother and better.
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Blarg's AMTL - Vision of the AMTL
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:05 pm 
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(wargame_insomniac @ Nov. 17 2007,11:35)
QUOTE
One of the earliest discussions we had on AMTL was multiple Titan weapon configurations vs free weapon choices.  I would like the Titan weapon configurations option as this would add to the options available to IG & SM lists (even if only allowed for future lists).

I also think it would be easier to playtest say half a dozen Titan weapon configurations than to playtest a near infinite number of combinations if we allow complete free choice.

I prefer free choice for weapons, but I could go for this compromise. The upgrades wouldn't have to be free, depending on what weapons were being swapped.

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