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Two 8.4 games.

Soren

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:15 pm

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(Hena @ Nov. 15 2007,19:40)

QUOTE

Since it's not crucial to eliminate them, there is no point. Epic can and should create new units if wanted or needed. Marines got Landing Craft, which didn't exists before that.

Landing Craft was added by GW

But I agree, Vituperator is not crucial, as there is no model anyway. If a "Clean-up" is on the time schedule, it would be nice if that discussion will be remembered :;):

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Dave

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:18 pm

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(Markconz @ Nov. 14 2007,06:09)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 14 2007,10:07)

QUOTE

The Vituraptor is 100% made up for the E:A list.

Personally, I'd like to see it dropped.

Me too.

Thirded.

And the wing'ed Tyrant as well.

Dave

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:51 am

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IG: 25 units
Marines: 25 units
Orks: 27
Biel-Tan: 38 units
Black Legion: 28 + 9 daemons
Lost and the Damned: 25 + 9 daemons + 12 traitor units

Tyranids 26 units

and Tau 33 units....

I don't think having 26 units is over the top. Nids may have more special rules than other lists but I think they need it due to their very different nature.

Orks are similar, but their special rules are easy to understand. Also their weapons are limited (
Nids get bugger-all guns so you can't get much more limited than that

In lists with smaller numbers of units army wide special rules and point reductions can be used to make the less desirable options more focused on, but in a "whole race" list like this, it'l never get that balance.

Not sure this is true at all. Marines still aren't balanced and adding special rules seems to be frowned upon here unfortunately...

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:57 am

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and Tau 33 units....

Tau are not the best example of a balanced list however.

But I agree, Vituperator is not crucial, as there is no model anyway.

This is the critical point for me.

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Chroma

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:12 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 16 2007,00:57)

QUOTE

But I agree, Vituperator is not crucial, as there is no model anyway.

This is the critical point for me.

Well... the Harridan model is out of production from FW and GW... as are all the other Bug models... so, that's not really that great of a rational...

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:01 am

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Tau are not the best example of a balanced list however

Ha! Other than Orks and IG, show me one that is at present....

And my point wasn't to show Tau were balanced it was aimed more at the fact that Eldar have the most units and they aren't really as bad as Soren thinks. Nids having 26 units is really closer to the other lists...

but I'll try to stay on topic(nids) and stay out of your Tau bashing rhetoric ;

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Kagetora

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:08 am

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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
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Sooo.....

Since there are no models in production for the VAST majority of the Black Legion, and NONE in production for...

--Tyranids
--Necrons
--Dark Eldar
--Knights/Ordinatus/other AMTL units (including odd Titan Weapons
--various other Epic units...

Shall we just dump all of these completely? ?Or pick and choose ones to dump for the sake of simplicity (as opposed to variety)?

Or, shall we march lock-step with published fluff and 40k doctrine and dump anything thats not listed in those?

Thats ludicrous. ?Lunacy.

Again...and again, and again...if the rules work adequately, LEAVE THEM ALONE. ?If they don't work, lets examine why, and alter them. ?Deletion should be a last resort.

If you want less variety, find another game system. ?Try Wargods. ?Fun system. ?Decent rules. ?Neat game. ?I have 2 Warbands. ?There is incredibly little variation betwen the various warbands.

Thats not GW. ?Its not 40k, and its not WFB. ?There is an INCREDIBLE amount of variety not only in the basic list you choose, but within that very list.

Lets not dump that. ?Will everything ever be perfectly balanced? ?Hell no! ?Theres FAR too much variety already. ?Putting your blinders on and focusing only on perfect balance...well, thats a short path to frustration, if not insanity.

Keep variety. ?Not TOO much, but plenty. ?Focus on adequate balance. ?Don't go crazy.

And, for the love of the Gods, lets focus on the BASIC 'Nid list, and get one out that the majority of players think is good, decently balanced, and fun to play. ?We don't need 3+ Nid lists. ?We don't even have one yet. ?No offense, Chroma. ?But we need to focus our efforts a bit more.

Just an outsider/newcomers $0.02.

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Soren

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:15 am

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@Hena Nevertheless this difference decides between official or not, no matter what the reasons are.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:03 am

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(Chroma @ Nov. 16 2007,01:12)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 16 2007,00:57)

QUOTE

But I agree, Vituperator is not crucial, as there is no model anyway.

This is the critical point for me.

Well... the Harridan model is out of production from FW and GW... as are all the other Bug models... so, that's not really that great of a rational...

That's a truescale Harridan, it's not a 'vituraptor', which would be a lot bigger.

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Soren

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:43 pm

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Only if "officially" approved. and nobody here is able to do so, sorry

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Chroma

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:03 pm

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(Soren @ Nov. 16 2007,16:43)

QUOTE

Only if "officially" approved. and nobody here is able to do so, sorry

Well, Jervis himself put it in the list... so I'm not sure what more you want for "official" in a playtest document.

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Soren

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:16 pm

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Jervis itself also put the Hydraphant as a Dominatrix without synapse into the list, now the things went different.

For my understanding of "official" it should at least give a "notification" in any official document (codex, rulevook, IA, WD wharever) about an unit to include it into the universe. We can quarrel about what is official another 20 posts, neighter of us will see it different afterwards. My point of view on new units is strictly conservative. If not named, it doesn?t exist. Else we end up (for example) with another 20 different Chaos units, EoV, SHT or whatever imaginable. Consequence: more units to get in line, which is impossible now anyway when I look at the inflationary appearance of new lists.

But I am reapeating my old arguments which are not recognized as valid in the community, I know. No problem with that btw......but I feel the system slipping away from being manageable with every new proposal. Tyranids are only a symptom of the process. It?s not getting easier, it?s only getting more complicated. No guts to cleanup lists.

Ideas are good, but ideas without "rules of engagement" are chaos. Lesson 1 in every value management training course

Oh, I am again repeating myself.... :;):

edit: Don?t take this post personal, I only describe the process, not the fault of single persons. :blush:

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Two 8.4 games.

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:36 pm

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(Chroma @ Nov. 15 2007,20:12)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 16 2007,00:57)

QUOTE

But I agree, Vituperator is not crucial, as there is no model anyway.

This is the critical point for me.

Well... the Harridan model is out of production from FW and GW... as are all the other Bug models... so, that's not really that great of a rational...

For the sake of playing devil's advocate... unlike the Vituperator, all of them did exist in the past. So, it's theoretically possible to acquire them second hand.

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