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Well, I spoke with Andy H.

primarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:10 am

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(Heresiarch @ Sep. 26 2007,15:39)

QUOTE

While I largely agree with you Primarch, I wouldn't say Epic is 'canned'. Canned to me would mean no epic figures for sale, and no support material hosted by GW.

Canned would be next up I think... I would expect the board to do a big song and dance for the shareholders about how they are rationalizing the lines and leveraging their core strengths by reducing overhead right about the second that the LotR licence expires.

The SG games will probably just be crushed like a gnat at the exact same time. Too many figures with too much overhead for too little revenue...

And given that's pretty much why they killed it the last time we went through this I can't say as I see any reason why it would be different this time.

GW will not be creating any new games, neither will they be ditching the current SG range. The investment made in all the games so far has been far more than SG needs in it's current mission. And just so long that continuing with the current range doesn't cost more than it's worth, or distract unduly from the core business, it will stay.

Sure they'll ditch it.

All the SG lines take up time, energy and money for marketing, web site space and production/warehousing.

This is the exact same calculus that GW went through last time when they canned e40K and at least then they had a larger line to sell to consumers. Look at the price Tyranid plastics go for on flea-bay.

If they can't even be bothered to fill the existing market why would they bother to continue to half ass a job of it?

Sorry DRM and Exodus, I'm not interested in any made up sci-fi world, they have no relevence or meaning. Over the years, 40k has been an education and not just a pleasure for me.

As L4 would say... do what ever works for you but at least DRM and EW have done more than just poorly rip off history and tart it up like something original.

GW's originality is so laughable it's sad.

Enjoyable? You bet. Original? Not even remotely.
Hi!

You summarized my sentiments exactly.

SG is set up to FAIL. They cant offer product, hence cant get money, hence offer less product and support.

Its a self fulfilling cycle. Epic A never had a chance because GW was NEVER behind it. Its not enough for Fanantic/SG and a handful of enthusiast to support it. A game needs the GW marketing machine behind it. IT needs to be widely distributed and aggressively marketed.

NONE of these were present or implied from the getgo. GW didnt even blink.

You can have the most remarkable rules in the history of man and it will not do well commercially if the company who makes it doesn't support it.

What message does it send the prospective customer when he sees the game then realizes its virtually NO WHERE besides a couple of online ventures. Most stores wont carry it since they dont get their regular discounts.

Like I said, marketed to fail. Such a shame because the rules ARE good. But that cannot overcome GW's indifference.

Primarch

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Legion 4

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:19 am

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Well, I'm not a fan of the G/W Fluff at all ... A lot about the figures I don't like. But I've been collecting Epic since '90 and I generally like most that I see ... I'm very happy that DRM & E/W are in Business ! Besides I've been e-pals with Doug & Tom, for years ! We've said this before, we'll keep Epic alive here, but as the G/W-F/W support continues to wane ... We'll still have DRM & E/W to keep us supplied with new minis. And I'm sure I'll like their fluff much better than G/W's ! But that's wouldn't be hard to do !

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Markconz

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:36 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Primarch, you have been saying epic is dead since e40k. About 10 years ago maybe.

Epic currently has free rules, articles, and army lists available for download. It has a online store with a large range of figures available.

This is better service than most wargaming companies that exist. It only looks bad in comparison to the core GW games. If you are used to game systems other than GW, it doesn't look that bad at all.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:09 am

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore

(Markconz @ Sep. 28 2007,07:36)

QUOTE

Primarch, you have been saying epic is dead since e40k. About 10 years ago maybe.

Epic currently has free rules, articles, and army lists available for download. It has a online store with a large range of figures available.

This is better service than most wargaming companies that exist. It only looks bad in comparison to the core GW games. ?If you are used to game systems other than GW, it doesn't look that bad at all.

Technically, you are correct. However, and I am a little worried that I am agreeing with primarch here (!), the issue is not what is available now, but what the future plans are. I agree that the current state is sustainable. While it would be nice to miniatures for every facet of the game, it is certainly playable with the tiny resources that are available today. You cant play Tyranids, and SG Tau, but there is still a fairly good selection.

For me, the point at which Epic 'died' was Games Day, when the announcement was made - and not to the players, by the way, but to people who attended Games Day, it would be unthinkable that GW/SG actually respected its customers enough to officially announce this - that there would be no new miniature releases for the foreseeable future.

The problem is that this 'stable state' is really difficult to move out of. It says that Epic is not a concern (which we knew) but beyond that it also says that they dont want to think about it right now, and no miniatures means no development, no support and no reason to push the game in any way. Even companies with smaller miniature ranges and 'less resources' have an incentive to actively market their products, and are likely to release something if they think that it will sell. Chaos plastics sold very well, but it seems that even this makes no difference.

I have lived through the 'death' of the previous three editions of the game, and generally been fairly pragmatic about events. However, this news has hacked me off more than anything in the past.

The players have invested a lot of time and money in this, and (give or take the odd player - :;):

) have supported and believed in the game, despite any past records.

It is all very well to say dont rely on GW, but at some point there has to be some kind of agreement between the players and the company behind the game - for us to put out time and money into it, and for the company at the very least to respect that commitment.

Given past performance, does anyone really believe that SG will be restructured and rise to promote the games? I dont. Perhaps in a couple of years, some of the games will again be pushed, simply to fleece money from a few more gamers, but nothing serious.

Right now, wargaming seems a really bad hobby to get into, and any SG simply a bad investment for any propsective player.

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alansa

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:28 am

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Heresiarch
As L4 would say... do what ever works for you but at least DRM and EW have done more than just poorly rip off history and tart it up like something original.

GW's originality is so laughable it's sad.

Enjoyable? You bet. Original? Not even remotely.

Nobody ever said 40k was original. I never said it was original. GW never tried to "make out" that it was original. Originality was never the point in 40k. References are.... be they cultural, or historical. I would suggest that's one of the reasons why it's so popular.

GW references the things it loves (medieval history, 20 century armies, books, movies) not because it can't think of anything original, but because it loves these things and wants to include them. If you look at it this way GW really are very good students of history and culture.

Tolkien himself did pretty much the same thing too. Fundamentally, there is very little 'new' in his works either! Everything he 'created' is a reference to something real that he loved.

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alansa

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:48 am

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On the subject of the future of SG, as I've said before, the current GW 'mission' for SG means that there will be no more investment in it. This is because, for it's current mission, far more than enough investment has already been made.

While cracks remain allowing cash to escape from 40k and warhammer (recent developments for these games are attempts to close up these gaps) SG products will continue to be sold. We can only hope that they keep the current range largely intact.

But remember, SG is a last resort (which is why they make it easy to be attracted 40k and WH and SG is very low profile) and for sure GW would have cancelled the entire range back in 2005, if they had thought their 'coverage' for the core games was perfect.

Just to clarify, according to strategy that GW adopted 10 years ago, if things where perfect, there would be no place for SG.

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Mephiston

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:18 am

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I don't think the whole wargaming hobby is in a bad way. EA is my rule set of choice and its a pity that GW are killing it.

That said, there are lots of other games out there that are nearly as good, and they are supported by both the rules writers and many mini manufactures.

If GW formally kills EA and the fan base disappears there are lots of alternatives to turn to while we wait for the next golden age in gaming.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:42 pm

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Well as I and others have said many, many times before ... We'll keep Epic and 6mm Sci-fi (somewhat based on Epic) alive here ... Once F/W runs out of steam with AI, and no more 6mm models are produced by G/W-S/G-F/W ... it really won't matter, as we've said before ... I know some Boyz are rabid fans of Epic models (I've got 99% of what they made !), but DRM, E/W, GZG, CH, etc., is/will fill the void. Not to mention eBay, Bartertown etc. ! :;):

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Otterman

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:48 pm

(primarch @ Sep. 27 2007,21:01)

QUOTE

I haven't relied on GW since 1997. Its quite liberating actually.

Also liberating: silicon and resin. Well, to a degree.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:00 pm

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One thing i find amusing is how few people have signed the petition to go to Andy. Either the community is already given up on Andy or it is dying on the vine. I'd hope it was the former of the two (in which case I urge you to sign it even if you don't think it will do any good).

If everyone is so convinced that SG is gone, lets just use this petition to show the nay sayers that we're right, then move forward with the NetEA. We're wasting a lot of time complaining about what was and not enough time working on what can be.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:47 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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I'm all for the gaming community having a say in who gets on the ERC. And I am all for having this act as a way to get new blood into the ERC.

But elections are a very bad idea.

I'd support this 100% if the suggestion was to have the community nominate people and have members of the ERC or some other group select people.

This is absolutely the last place where you want people picked purely via popularity. Doing so will end in a giant f*ck*ng disaster.

Sorry for the faux profanity but I really feel quite strongly about this.

Popular people are not always the ones who do the necessary and unenviable work that is required. Making this into a popularity contest will just create a bigger mess than we already have.

To respond to this in full, PG, I agree that a popularity contest is not always good. However if you nominate somebody you still have your popularity contest woes.

At some point we have to trust that the people in the community will make the right decisions in general. A selected group will have the same potential for problems as an elected group since they are from the same pool of people. The difference is one group is held accountable and the other group is not.

With all this said, I don't believe Andy will allow the elections anyway, but I'm repeating myself at this point.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:01 pm

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I've deleted my abstention from the 'petitition' at your request Mosc.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:52 pm

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There is one main tabletop killer: pc & game consoles.
and GW still doesn't know how to cope with it.

I agree with Cybershadow on the terminal moment: when Andy told it at gamesday and no official word was on the websites.
That stinks.

Will SG survive? Dunno.

I do know Warp Rift has more then 10000 downloads! on one issue in august. That's a lot. So a lot of people care to read about the game. I also get submissions on a regular base (but where is Ray these days?). And it is sad to see Incoming down for a while. Hopefully EaC can liven up Epic through Firebase.

In one paragraph 3 fanzines which have more quality articles then GW's own magazine.

This game, especially SG and even core games, are at the hands of the fans. And I think this will grow as the PC market grows.

Andy Chambers was smart to dive into Warcraft.

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netepic

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:56 pm

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As long as we get articles - Incoming is good to go, it's just a bit of a drought at the moment...

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Heresiarch

Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:00 pm

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There is one main tabletop killer: pc & game consoles. and GW still doesn't know how to cope with it.

I think that's true of the whole industry BH not just GW.

And that's why I have no faith in GW continuing to do anything other than blunder on as they have been doing.

All their rhetoric to date makes me think they view the market slowdown as a temporary issue rather than a permanent feature.

Apocalypse is a perfect example... It's like the only thing they could come up with to increase sales was to come up with a game that made you buy 5 times as many of the existing minis to play it.

There won't be any financial legs in that scheme.

And if you can afford to sell QTY 10 Leman Russes for "a 40% savings" that to me suggests either your individual figs are hideously overpriced or you've decided to take up Amazon's theory of doing business where market share is more important that profitability.

Either way it's sure as hell not going to improve your year end balance sheet.

This game, especially SG and even core games, are at the hands of the fans. And I think this will grow as the PC market grows.

Isn't that what the problem is though? We are left to rely on the fans of the game for support.

We have two distinct camps here.

The Netepic types who are happy to play with proxies and support "their" game and those who only want legitimate GW figs to play with.

The second type are never ever going to be able to play the game like they want. It's that simple. GW simply won't let them. Quite simply they're not a big enough market to care about. There's a decade worth of proven behaviour on GW's part that bears that out.

If Net:EA comes along I will happily slot it in alongside the other versions I play but the fact of the matter is GW is *not* supporting their game it's the fans doing it even now and that tells you all you need to know about GW's intentions for the game.

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Well, I spoke with Andy H.

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