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Tyranid Bash

 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:33 pm 
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After browsing through Tyranid army list, here is a (non limitative) list of all the decreases, reductions and loss of efficiency affecting Tyranids without any compensation. BTW, why the Hive Tyrant became a Hive Queen?  :D

- Infantry: not able to gang up on "Big Things" anymore (namely titans). Affects all armies in the game but Tyranids most, since this list relies heavily on assault infantry and its CAF is capped at +14.
- Infantry: suffering from the CAF bonus of infantry entrenched in building and ruins. Again, all armies are affected but Tyranids suffer the most of this change since it's, again, an assault infantry list. Even Genestealers (CAF+6) have now trouble assaulting SM tactical company (CAF+2) entrenched in a building (+2 bonus). Remember that one-third of assaulters will just be wiped out before combat begins just because of first fire.
- Regeneration card: was removing all wound counters, now just 1D6. Awfully random, too.
- Trygon: in GW version, the result of the to-hit roll of the Trygon was used as a save modifier. Since you hit on 3+ the save modifier was ranging from -3 to -6. Now, the TSM of the Trygon has been set to-3 TSM (the minimum) without any variation. Who hates the Trygon?
- Bio-Titans: the thread is not closed yet but many seem keen to neuter them.
- Pyro-Acid cost increased to 60.
- No allies. Not a big deal, but one could hardly count that as an advantage!

Okay, Exocrine now have a AA gun and Lictors *may* ambush, but I don't think it makes up for all of items listed above. :)

As Ulmo aptly said, Tyranids have to kill each and every vehicle and stand from the opposing army to ensure victory. They don't have mass damage dealing units (just one template weapon in the army, few and poor artillery) and weak firepower: they have to get close and personal with infantry stands. It's far from easy.

I seriously think that Tyranids should be reworked to be more, well, mean, because I find the army list seriously lacking punch in NetEpic 5, especially regarding Space Marine rules.  ???

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:10 pm 
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(Kotrin @ Sep. 20 2007,12:33)
QUOTE
After browsing through Tyranid army list, here is a (non limitative) list of all the decreases, reductions and loss of efficiency affecting Tyranids without any compensation. BTW, why the Hive Tyrant became a Hive Queen? ?:D

- Infantry: not able to gang up on "Big Things" anymore (namely titans). Affects all armies in the game but Tyranids most, since this list relies heavily on assault infantry and its CAF is capped at +14.
- Infantry: suffering from the CAF bonus of infantry entrenched in building and ruins. Again, all armies are affected but Tyranids suffer the most of this change since it's, again, an assault infantry list. Even Genestealers (CAF+6) have now trouble assaulting SM tactical company (CAF+2) entrenched in a building (+2 bonus). Remember that one-third of assaulters will just be wiped out before combat begins just because of first fire.
- Regeneration card: was removing all wound counters, now just 1D6. Awfully random, too.
- Trygon: in GW version, the result of the to-hit roll of the Trygon was used as a save modifier. Since you hit on 3+ the save modifier was ranging from -3 to -6. Now, the TSM of the Trygon has been set to-3 TSM (the minimum) without any variation. Who hates the Trygon?
- Bio-Titans: the thread is not closed yet but many seem keen to neuter them.
- Pyro-Acid cost increased to 60.
- No allies. Not a big deal, but one could hardly count that as an advantage!

Okay, Exocrine now have a AA gun and Lictors *may* ambush, but I don't think it makes up for all of items listed above. :)

As Ulmo aptly said, Tyranids have to kill each and every vehicle and stand from the opposing army to ensure victory. They don't have mass damage dealing units (just one template weapon in the army, few and poor artillery) and weak firepower: they have to get close and personal with infantry stands. It's far from easy.

I seriously think that Tyranids should be reworked to be more, well, mean, because I find the army list seriously lacking punch in NetEpic 5, especially regarding Space Marine rules. ????

- Infantry 1: ?All armies have been affected by this. ?Fair to say Wind Rider Host/Guild Bikers/KoS aren't happy about it either. ?If anything Tyranids benefitted most from this as their titans are best in CC and they have great choice of Knight and Superheavy class units with brutal CAF numbers.

- Infantry 2: ?Again, applies equally to everyone. ?Get in the building and get the modifier too.

- Regen Card: ?This was abusive before. ?Excellent change.

- Trygon: ?Fair point if it was changed....but it is -D6.....

- Bio Titans: ?Obviously a sore point with you. ?Everyone else seems to see the need for a modification.

- Pyro-Acid: ?Is this a change from 4.1 to 5.0? ?What was the old point cost?

- No Allies: ?Could they ever take allies?

Now, bonuses they get.

AA units, Ripper Swarms, Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, Raveners, Zoats, Winged Tyrants, Brooders, Scythed Hierodules, Ripper Tenticles affect Superheavy/Knight class, Spores are better, more hive mind cards....no doubt others I've missed.

Just one template weapon? ?Dact/Biovore/Trygon/Harridan/Malefactor/Haruspex/Dom./Titan weapons.
Weak Firepower? ?Exocrines... -3 TSM, Pen +1. ?Dom 6 shots at -3, Harridan 4 shots at effective -4???

We don't seem to be experiencing any lack of punch with the Tyranids around here. ?I haven't lost with my bugs under NE5.0 rules, and I think OzT has only lost one game with them this year.  :p





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 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:44 pm 
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I never claim that some of those changes where only affecting Tyranids, simply that they were affecting them *the most*. Hence telling that "it affects everyone so don't bother" is not a valid reply. If you forbid all Close Combat in the game, Tau players won't be the first to complain... :)

Regen & Hive mind cards: well, things have changed a lot, since original Tyranids had to spend hive mind cards to place orders. At that time, there was still one regen card in the deck and you were lucky if you had it twice in a game (in most case, when playing a 3000 pts battle it was one or zero). I agree that getting it was quite random and that it was very powerful. I can't figure out how often you get it now but what bugs me (sorry for the pun :D ) is the randomness. Removing 6 wounds is incredible, and just 1 utterly ridiculous. Perhaps we could do better.

For Trygon, my NetEpic army list copy is mentioning a fixed -3 TSM. We should put back original rules.

Pyro-Acid: in fact, there was no "original cost" since all weapons were given with the Titan. I was just wondering why it wasn't a multiple of 25 and thought it had been increased from 50, I'm probably wrong. Having a weapon costed at 60 is nonetheless annoying since all other tyranid weapons are multiples of 25. Either we should up the cost to 75, or decrease it to 50, or alter other Tyranid weapons so a weapon cost of 60 affects the final titan cost differently than if it costed 75 in the first place.

Regarding their "bonuses"

AA units, Ripper Swarms, Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, Raveners, Zoats, Winged Tyrants, Brooders, Scythed Hierodules, Ripper Tenticles affect Superheavy/Knight class, Spores are better, more hive mind cards....no doubt others I've missed.


I don't know what you missed but you count as "bonuses" units that are just part of the army list. I've nothing against adding more units to a list but those additions should be made in the name of flavor, not to fix weaknesses in the list. In other words, you should not rely on NetEpic introduced units to win a battle.

When speaking of "weak firepower", I stand by my words. You wrote
Just one template weapon?  Dact/Biovore/Trygon/Harridan/Malefactor/Haruspex/Dom./Titan weapons.

Well, I'm not impressed by mere barrage templates. I meant Tyranids have nothing close to Airburst templates, Hellhound firethrowers nor Barrage missile launchers. No tyranid big gun has a to-hit better than 5+. Not that they should, but please follow me when I state that Tyranids are an assault infantry list, the same way Tau are obviously a shooty list. It means Tyranids are more affected than another army when changing infantry rules.

I have no problem - not even a sore point - regarding Bio-Titans. I just don't see the need to weaken Tyranids in the first place. In fact, I always found them so weak that I don't get the need to tone them down. We never met in battle...  :;):

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:32 pm 
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and what is with the "hive queen name?"

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:02 am 
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Well, when E40K (forever curse its' name) was released they gave us little itty bitty versions of the Hive Tyrant, Carnifex and Biovores.  Clever people decided these could be different units in NetEpic, so now we have Carnifexes and Razorfexes, and Hive Tyrants and Hive Queens.  I'd guess people took their cues from the insect world where the Female is often the big bad critter (and Aliens I suppose), and hence the bigger version is the Hive Queen.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bash
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:05 am 
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Oh, and I hate the Titan weapons with odd scores too.....but I didn't do it :D. ?I think maybe the P.A.S was just a typo....can't see any problem with making it 50.

Bile Launcher hits on a 3+.  Razorfex on a 4.





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