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Speed Freeks
nealhunt
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:10 pm 
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If someone is in contact with Mekboy, please drop him a line and let him know we're discussing this stuff.
==

As with the Ferals, we can break out detailed discussions.  A few starters:

Neal:Warband - 225/400/575
Outriders - 150/250/350 (still the best discount in an ork list)
Fortress mob - 275/475/675

Hena:I'm actually rather worried about the Outrider formation. It seems quite cheap for it's use. Would like to start it's cost from 175 rather than from 150.

175/300/425
Tiny Tim:Do people really have a big problem with Out Riders - I mainly use them to fill up a Landa for an air assault. What problems have others faced?

Outriders:  Are they too cheap?  They are a 25 point unit (Warbikes) with Scout added.  That puts them at ~30 points, and that's where their base formation is - 150 points for 5.  However, the discounts for Big and Uge are really large.  150/225/300 is -75/-150.  That's a 25%/33% discount.  That's about double the discount of most ork formations.  Although lacking the strategic flexibility of the KoS formation they end up cheaper, with better stats, for comparably sized formations.

Warband:  I think most people agree it's just a bit too cheap.  How much?  The numbers I threw out above are +25/+50/+75.  Tiny Tim threw out +0/+25/+50.  I don't recall what Mekboy said, but I think it was the same as Tiny Tim.

Fortress Mob:  Has anyone ever taken these?  I only fielded a Fortress Mob one time (a comical disaster due to insane terrain checks) and I don't recall ever seeing one in a list posted to the boards.  Will a point drop like the above be sufficient to entice people to take them?

Zzap Fort:  Should this be added?  The Forts are the "big brother" to the wagons - Battlewagon/Battlefort, Gunwagon/Gunfort.  It would make sense to have a Speedsta/Zzapfort duo (Mek weapons and shields on both).  I removed the Zzapfort from the OGBM for flavor reasons, but I do think it is a cool unit and would like to find a niche where it could fit.

Mekboy speedstas:  Do people take these?  Are they useful for their points?  Personally, I like them and think they add a lot.  I just can't recall seeing many people including them in their army lists so I thought I would ask.

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rpr
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:19 pm 
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If the warband is too cheap, could we instead remove one warbike/scorcha/buggy instead of upping the cost?

Fot the outriders, I think only big and huge are overpriced. Compare to land speeders, for example.

For the mekboy speedstas, I think they are nice (replacement for grots), but I would also love to see zzapps/scoopas in speed freak list (especially when they have no gargants etc).

Fortress mob seems overpriced as no transport capability, no fearless, no reinforced armor...

KoS in speed freak list could have nobz bike... =]
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:47 am 
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I have sent Mekboy a text message to see if he is going to participate or not in this discussion.

Right, he has responded and said that he will try and have a look, however he hasn't played in 2 years and is happy for one of the two Hunts to take over for him. That's Neil (obviously) or me.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Tim:  Same as the other threads.

Warband: We only differ by ~25 points on this.  I'd like to keep the point progression uniform as it suits my anal retentiveness but I can live with something different.

Outriders:  In answer to the earlier question, yes, I really have a problem with Outriders.  I'm okay with them boing roughly the same price/unit with normal KoS bikes and having better stats (Scout).  The formation has considerably less strategic flexibility than a KoS.  That offsets the Scout ability.  I don't think it's okay for them to be both cheaper and better.  As the list stands, I've never taken more than a handful of Warbikes in a list (maybe 1 per KoS on average - maybe) because I simply can't bring myself to pay normal price for them when the Outriders are better and cheaper.

Fortress Mob:  I definitely think these are in need of a point drop.  It seems people are okay with the 275/475/675.

Zzap Fort:  I know this isn't terribly popular, but I'm unreasonably obsessed with it so I'm taking another shot at convincing everyone.  I think this is a perfectly characterful addition to the list.  I'd really like to see it added as part of the wagon/fort progression.  With the point change to the Fortress Mob I think it would make a "heavy" freek army an actual possibility.

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Dave
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:56 pm 
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If the Zzap fort was 1 per Fortress Mob size unit I think it would be a natural progression in Orkiness.

In an effort to substantiate my claim I submit to you the following conversation between Joe Ork and his Big Mek, Jeep.

Joe Ork: "We'z make da Zapp gunz!  We'z put dem on da wagonz!"

Jeep: "Yes Joe... we know..."

Joe Ork: "We'z make da Fortress!"

Jeep: "Ya Joe..."

Joe Ork: "I'z put da Zapp gunz on it too."

Jeep: "HOLY CRAP JOE! YOU SMART ORK!"

Joe Ork: "I'z have me moments."

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:16 pm 
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Ok, my changes

Warband increase cost for Big & Uge formations as these are too stong, but a normal warband is very fragile.
so +0/+25/+50

Outriders too cheap increase to 150/250/350 with no upgrades.

Fortress Mobs with the poor save that fortresses have I will agree to a drop in points to 275/475/675.

No to Zzappfortress for now

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:46 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 18 2007,16:16)
QUOTE
Ok, my changes

Warband increase cost for Big & Uge formations as these are too stong, but a normal warband is very fragile.
so +0/+25/+50

Outriders too cheap increase to 150/250/350 with no upgrades.

Fortress Mobs with the poor save that fortresses have I will agree to a drop in points to 275/475/675.

No to Zzappfortress for now

Sounds Good

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:01 pm 
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These changes look ok to me.I still think the boost to mobbing up with increased numbers in each formation(12 units instead of 8 counting to mobbing up)could be a slight problem.
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:28 am 
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(dptdexys @ Sep. 18 2007,17:01)
QUOTE
These changes look ok to me.I still think the boost to mobbing up with increased numbers in each formation(12 units instead of 8 counting to mobbing up)could be a slight problem.

I have considered that we should not count Trukks as part of the numbers for mob up rule, but the trukks are a main part of a SF army and, I know I shouldn't rely on it, but in 40k boys rally automatically if they mount up.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:08 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 19 2007,08:39)
QUOTE

(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 18 2007,18:16)
QUOTE
Outriders too cheap increase to 150/250/350 with no upgrades.

I'm still worried about the quality of those. Unlike other similar formation (Sentinels and Land Speeders) Outriders have several advantages.

1. They can assault a target to death easier. Speeders and Sentinels have FF5+ which they use (although speeders have MW). Warbikes have CC 4+ to overwhelm smaller target formations (such as artillery) and they are fast enough to get to CC.

2. They are not Light Vehicles and thus are better protected (than other similar units).

Shorter firing range, poorer FF, better CC. Outriders really have to get into BtB to be effective.

Plus now, I can have 16 KoS for a Uge Outriders formation. So their benefit of scout is reduced by the restriction that they are just one type of unit and the loss of a stand. The loss of flexibility is a big IMO.

This change overal seems fair to me.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:21 am 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 18 2007,14:23)
QUOTE
Zzap Fort: ?I know this isn't terribly popular, but I'm unreasonably obsessed with it so I'm taking another shot at convincing everyone. ?I think this is a perfectly characterful addition to the list. ?I'd really like to see it added as part of the wagon/fort progression. ?With the point change to the Fortress Mob I think it would make a "heavy" freek army an actual possibility.

Even that this did not get into change propsals, I?d like to test it. So what would be its stats and price for testing?

I am a big fan of Heavy Speed Freaks (Bad Moon as I am) so that could be nice to test.


Some old version of Marconz Handbook had price 250 for two Gun/Battlefortress, and I did not feel it too cheap. *shrug*

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Markconz
 Post subject: Speed Freeks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:20 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Oct. 26 2007,10:21)
QUOTE
Some old version of Marconz Handbook had price 250 for two Gun/Battlefortress, and I did not feel it too cheap. *shrug*

That was an older proposal from Neal. I didn't think it was too cheap either for what its worth.

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