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Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:29 pm 
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Thanks for the typo listings keep them coming. They will be fixed up for the next version.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:17 am 
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(rpr @ Aug. 30 2007,15:04)
QUOTE
Well, in current form of the text, Warlock titan farsight has no gameplay effect at all.. ?(that part which I refer talks about initiative rolls and 3rd activation, not avatar)

I think the only thing it does is allow you that 2nd retain (3rd activation)...

I'd never really looked at farsight that closely, but it does seem overly limited with the "Farseer only stuff"...

Probably should be mentioned to Sotec.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Ok just corrected the few mentioned typos in V1.4. Thanks guys.

@ rpr: regarding skimmer rule, yes I agree with you - however the skimmer rule change was perhaps the longest running debate in epic history (and it is also the only thing the ERC ever produced in concrete form!).  Thus I'm not jinxing by changing it at this stage...

On the barrage FAQ - any problem in just deleting the underlined part?
Q: Does a barrage get the Crossfire modifier if applicable?
A: Yes. The firing formation needs to be within 30cm of the target so this isn?t
possible with Indirect Fire.

(Note indirect fire is no longer specifically part of the barrage rules, but is a special ability in section 2)


Anyone else who wants to take a crack at some of these FAQ's - that would be great. A very large number of them would seem unnecessary to me if people would only read the rules...


Re Farsight: - yes technically it does nothing with current wording(!) so have changed to 'a unit with Farsight'.   A Farseer still remains necessary to summon the Avatar.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:50 pm 
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Only just become aware of this handbook because of another thread, certainly very impressive.

Just a few questions, comments -

The MW barrage rules saying all targets are treated as AP is a very poor rule and completely uneeded why keep it - its certainly not a rule change that a majority of players agree with its probably about 50/50 (not good enough to me to justify a change)

Also how does first strike interact with the new support fire rules - does it have no effect or does the act of killing with first strike effect what other supporting formations consider when they see who is still involved in the assault (ie units within 15cm of each other)

The change to strategy both for teleporters and other special abilities in terms of allowing the higher strategy to always choose when they are resolved - any reason for this, it seems to me it was a deliberate design choice to include this small weakness in high strategy (its not like it isnt still a huge advantage to have a higher strategy) what is the justification for the rule change.

Also a combination of allowing CAP to remain from turn to turn combined with a +1 to hit has a dramatic effect on Air assaults, landing aircraft and bombers - not sure this has actually been play tested nearly enough.

Just my first thoughts on the rules - in general this is a very impressive piece of work.

Will try and get around to the army lists.

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rpr
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:12 pm 
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New typo findings from handbook:
- swooping hawks have wrong CC (4+, should be 5+)
- support weapon platform have wrong FF (5+, should be 6+)
- war walker has wrong CC (6+, should be 5+)

Speaking of Eldar: howling banshees need something - does anyone ever take them unless runs out of other aspect warrior stands?
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:18 pm 
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I take them for dropping behind enemy lines via a Vampire and they work just fine.  Leave them poor girls alone!  All this pressure is what causes these easily influenced Eldar women to do silicone Death Mask implants and such.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:16 am 
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(yme-loc @ Aug. 31 2007,13:50)
QUOTE
The MW barrage rules saying all targets are treated as AP is a very poor rule and completely uneeded why keep it - its certainly not a rule change that a majority of players agree with its probably about 50/50 (not good enough to me to justify a change)

I dislike it a lot too, I don't think it is a good change and I believe it unbalances things (particularly orks). However, apparently it has ERC support and I've gone with what they say. It would take a great number of grumpy people  to change it given the ERC support status...  


Also how does first strike interact with the new support fire rules - does it have no effect or does the act of killing with first strike effect what other supporting formations consider when they see who is still involved in the assault (ie units within 15cm of each other)


First strike shouldn't change support fire specifically, as support fire is worked out at the end of normal casualty resolution.


The change to strategy both for teleporters and other special abilities in terms of allowing the higher strategy to always choose when they are resolved - any reason for this, it seems to me it was a deliberate design choice to include this small weakness in high strategy (its not like it isnt still a huge advantage to have a higher strategy) what is the justification for the rule change.

Why should a high Strategy have an inbuilt weakness for this phase? Personally I think this change makes a lot of sense. The other day, the eldar player forced me to place my lictors (or not) before deciding where his Avatar and Swooping Hawks turned up - made sense to me. This change is one from Neals ERC document by the way.


Also a combination of allowing CAP to remain from turn to turn combined with a +1 to hit has a dramatic effect on Air assaults, landing aircraft and bombers - not sure this has actually been play tested nearly enough.

Fighters were not good enough in that role before. "Interceptors are worse than ground AA at defending against air attack which clearly is not correct". I remember something like that coming straight from the mouth of Jervis himself when he supported the +1 idea (on the old forums). Also this change has been in the ERC revision for a long time and I think significant amounts of people have actually been playing it for a while (I know my own group has).  


Thanks for all your comments yme-loc. Keep them coming.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:25 am 
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@ rpr. Thanks for the typos.  Yes howling banshees have often been cited as needing bit of a boost (eg people typically take striking scorpions instead). Perhaps start its own discussion thread in the Epic Armaggeddon HQ Eldar section if you really want to see something happen with them.  However, be aware that it was eventually decided not to do anything with them in the 1.8 process, (though I suspect that part of that was just about cutting down the numbers of changes). The final decision was something like 'Banshees do have a niche roll where they will be better than any other Aspect, however this niche is not one occurs as commonly as other Aspect's niches'.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:26 am 
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Regarding MW barrage it does indeed have unbalancing effects for both orks (I already have plenty of MW barrages - they certainly dont need a boost) and chaos (ferals go from hitting tanks on a 6+ to a 4+ with ignore cover) also cobras get a big boost for titan killing.

Just beause the ERC got this odd idea into their heads doesnt mean you have to keep it - perhaps if you remove it and this book does become the final rules change work, they just wont notice its missing until too late :;):

Regarding the CAP from turn to turn and +1 to hit - I agree that fighters currently are not as good as ground based flak. I was aware of the reason for this change and if only one of the above changes had been proposed I would have supported it wholeheartedly. The problem is people get carried away - if you give both bonus's how are air assaults (or bombers) supposed to get through nightwings on CAP.

Its also a no brainer, there are no tactics that can be employed once I get my nightwings onto CAP, they just sit there until your forced to risk your 500+pts of air assault by flying through 3 x 4+ lance and 3 x 4+ normal shots.

I would at this point almost always use them (well if firestorms were not so insanely good, I would anyway - but thats another story) - They are perfectly reasonable ground attackers and if I come up against a marine player or an eldar or ork player with heavy air elements they are brilliant.

As an aside from this I was wandering if somewhere in these rules you could clarify or specificaly state the rules for how overwatch and this new CAP would work. Most people seem to play that once on these orders you effectively just sit on them until you either shoot or elect to come off them, no matter how long this is (the whole game - if you want) - But the rules definetly imply that these formations cant ignore the fact that all formations have to take an action and that if they are the last unactivated formations (in the next turn now) in your army they have to come off overwatch (or CAP) and then attempt an order.

Also with regards the strategy rule change for special abilities its a little oddly written - the rule states one thing and then you have tagged the change onto the end - might want to rewrite this.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:10 pm 
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(yme-loc @ Sep. 03 2007,09:26)
QUOTE
Regarding MW barrage it does indeed have unbalancing effects for both orks (I already have plenty of MW barrages - they certainly dont need a boost) and chaos (ferals go from hitting tanks on a 6+ to a 4+ with ignore cover) also cobras get a big boost for titan killing.

Just beause the ERC got this odd idea into their heads doesnt mean you have to keep it - perhaps if you remove it and this book does become the final rules change work, they just wont notice its missing until too late :;):

Tempting...  :devil:   :;):

I guess if enough people are against it and start discussion etc it could be reviewed, though just from the point of getting things finished this time around, and not wanting to go against any ERC ruling, I'm not going to instigate such a process myself.

The Cobra issue was actually considered in the light of this change in the 1.8 Eldar revision though (so is thought to be balanced in theory...).

Regarding the CAP from turn to turn and +1 to hit - I agree that fighters currently are not as good as ground based flak. I was aware of the reason for this change and if only one of the above changes had been proposed I would have supported it wholeheartedly. The problem is people get carried away - if you give both bonus's how are air assaults (or bombers) supposed to get through nightwings on CAP.

Its also a no brainer, there are no tactics that can be employed once I get my nightwings onto CAP, they just sit there until your forced to risk your 500+pts of air assault by flying through 3 x 4+ lance and 3 x 4+ normal shots.

I would at this point almost always use them (well if firestorms were not so insanely good, I would anyway - but thats another story) - They are perfectly reasonable ground attackers and if I come up against a marine player or an eldar or ork player with heavy air elements they are brilliant.

As an aside from this I was wandering if somewhere in these rules you could clarify or specificaly state the rules for how overwatch and this new CAP would work. Most people seem to play that once on these orders you effectively just sit on them until you either shoot or elect to come off them, no matter how long this is (the whole game - if you want) - But the rules definetly imply that these formations cant ignore the fact that all formations have to take an action and that if they are the last unactivated formations (in the next turn now) in your army they have to come off overwatch (or CAP) and then attempt an order.


I've always played it lasts from turn to turn, not sure about others.

Regarding the fact you can't do anything about continuous CAP, that is true, but see the Design note for 'aircraft escorts'.

Also with regards the strategy rule change for special abilities its a little oddly written - the rule states one thing and then you have tagged the change onto the end - might want to rewrite this.

Suggestions?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:16 pm 
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This question on 'permanent' OW was raised on the SG Boards. The ruling given was that under 1.6.1, a formation that carried OW over the previous turn either had to shoot or take another action by the end of the turn - even if that action was another OW action.

Could I suggest that the same apply here - so you can carry CAP over to the next turn, but then must either use it, or carry out another action by the end of the turn.

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:09 pm 
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Markconz,

Sorry to change the subject but are you planning to introduce the Flame template rules into the Alpha Handbook. If it is likely to feature in the Nids, ATML and Chaos then it probably should go in.
Plus it cuts down the Special Rules needed in the Nids list.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:52 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 03 2007,19:05)
QUOTE
Ginger, that answer is that you don't have to activate a formation with OW. You can keep it and are not forced to activate it (and keep the OW). However if you have stopped taking activations, you cannot then later try to activate the OW formation.

Hena, I do not think that you are right here, at least according to the thread on the SG boards.

1.6.1 states that all formations must activate - no exception, and they may only activate once per turn. OW can be thought of as a delayed action - in this case passed on to the following turn. So it the formation shoots, it cannot do anything else.

However 1.6.1 forces it to do something - so if it is the last formation to activate, the player must declare an action and pass an activation test as usual even it that action is to go on OW again.

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