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Necron 4.2 - comments
nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:28 pm 
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How?  You keep saying that but there are no examples, just general descriptions that don't make sense to me.

The technique of turtling up can be circumvented.  The way to beat a castle formation is to chip away at it with clipping assaults which neutralize FF support and can also limit LoS for supporting ranged fire.  Between monster FF values and the ability to teleport everything in the army the Necrons are the perfect force for breaking a static position.  I can't see that turtling up is more than forestalling the inevitable.

Sure, every enemy activation is going to break a Necron formation, but at a 2:1 activation advantage, it doesn't matter.  At a normal tournament point level, that's still going to leave something like 5-6 unopposed Necron activations at the end of each turn.  And because of the auto-rally/teleport back into play, the activation advantage can only be reduced by outright destruction.

Auto-rally is probably the single most powerful ability any popcorn army could ever have.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Personally I'd like to see somebody try it.  It sounds tough to beat on paper but...  

If it turns out to be broken I think there is an easy fix that wouldn't inhibit the Necrons very much (Max 1 Monolith per Phalanx, or up the restriction to 2 support formations per Phalanx).
An alternative would be to up the cost of the Monolith to 85-100 points.

Still I'd like to see somebody break it before a change is put in place.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:53 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Aug. 29 2007,09:28)
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How? ?You keep saying that but there are no examples, just general descriptions that don't make sense to me.

The technique of turtling up can be circumvented. ?The way to beat a castle formation is to chip away at it with clipping assaults which neutralize FF support and can also limit LoS for supporting ranged fire. ?Between monster FF values and the ability to teleport everything in the army the Necrons are the perfect force for breaking a static position. ?I can't see that turtling up is more than forestalling the inevitable.

Sure, every enemy activation is going to break a Necron formation, but at a 2:1 activation advantage, it doesn't matter. ?At a normal tournament point level, that's still going to leave something like 5-6 unopposed Necron activations at the end of each turn. ?And because of the auto-rally/teleport back into play, the activation advantage can only be reduced by outright destruction.

Auto-rally is probably the single most powerful ability any popcorn army could ever have.

I actually put it the report on them down the first time someone brought the idea up. ?But here's how it goes generally.

If the Necron want to use clipping attacks to take out the picket formations, then they are more than welcome too. ?The entire purpose is just to preserve the core of your army from the initial Necron assault. ?The formations you stick on the outer edge are sacrificial, so if they clip them to take them out so be it. ?That just means the main purpose: ?Not having them ram home a massed assault, has worked.

After that, each activation, you fire into one or more of the Monolith's that have not yet been used to portal something in. ?Without support, they tend to die really fast, and this will help to trap more and more of the Necron phalanxs offboard. ?If they devoted only a portion of the availible Monoliths to the initial assault, then you will have an easier time of thining the ranks, and reducing the number of phalanx that make it to the table. ?

If they commit them all in one hammerblow... well, Each of those 3 armies had artillery. ?And when you are nestled together, it forces your enemies to get closer to each other as well. ?In fact, the situation just allows you to abuse the ariltery rules, since the Monolith's are a formation of one, all you have to do is cover it, and you can let the extra templates creep over onto infantry or other Monoliths, and reap a bitter harvest.

If you break the infantry, so what? ?They will be clogging the portals that survive. ?The important thing is that you direct enough fire at a monolith to ensure it's destruction. ?

Once the Monoliths are gone, it's a simple matter to break the small phalanx, you don't even have to kill them.

But I'd be happy to show you. :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:05 pm 
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Grudge match! ?Grudge match! ?Somebody beat up somebody else.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Corey,

Seriously I have a question about Monoliths.  NOT that I advocate changing things, but why aren't the monoliths WEs that are just more expensive and tougher to break.  Ex. A DC2 WE that has the ability to phase out.  It would obviously make an exception to the rule, but the C'tan are an exception as well so it wouldn't be without precedent.

This would make the Monoliths less prevalent, avoid the popcorn army, make them tougher, match the fluff better, and make modeling them a heck of a lot easier.

I am hesitant to push the list in this direction for lots of reasons but I throw it out here more to generate some discussion and maybe get some background from you on why the monoliths were designed the way they were.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:16 pm 
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After that, each activation, you fire into one or more of the Monolith's that have not yet been used to portal something in.  Without support, they tend to die really fast, and this will help to trap more and more of the Necron phalanxs offboard.  If they devoted only a portion of the availible Monoliths to the initial assault, then you will have an easier time of thining the ranks, and reducing the number of phalanx that make it to the table.


This paragraph is the kind of thing that I just can't picture.  I can't even really follow what you are saying.

After that, each activation, you fire into one or more of the Monolith's that have not yet been used to portal something in.
Portals work when broken, so what does it matter if you break the ones whose portal have been broken or not?  How does that help?  The Monoliths don't leave the board until the end phase, so if you break them, they just get a double move and the portals still sit there waiting to be used.  It seems this would have virtually no effect on portals at all and you would still want to go after unactivated formations to reduce the activation advantage.

Without support, they tend to die really fast, and this will help to trap more and more of the Necron phalanxs offboard.
What do you mean "without support"?  Are you assaulting the Monoliths or shooting at them.  "Support" is meaningless if you are shooting at them, and assaulting allows them lots of FF in return.  They are Fearless, so they don't die any faster by being broken.

How do you trap the Phalanxes off-board?  For the (unoptimized) ~20 formation force I listed above you'd have to kill (not break) 5-6 monoliths just to limit their options.  You could kill 10 of them, all with unused portals, and there would still be enough portals to bring on every single Phalanx.

If you break the infantry, so what?  They will be clogging the portals that survive.  
I'm so boggled by this comment I don't even know where to start.  How do you "clog portals" with a broken formation?  Necrons have a major activation advantage.  They can go anywhere on the board, and they are very good at FF.  Any formation that breaks and stays in harm's way can be destroyed at will by BMs or assault wipe-out.  A single Monolith without any support would have a good shot at winning an assault against most screening infantry, which would completely destroy the formation if it's already broken.  And if they are in the way, there will be lots of support.  What keeps this from being suicidal?

The important thing is that you direct enough fire at a monolith to ensure it's destruction.
It will take ~8 kills to really slow down a popcorn army appreciably.  That's ~32 AT hits.  You can only fire at one unit at a time so many AT-oriented formations will be "wasting" fire on overkill.  How do you rack up that kind of hit count?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:22 pm 
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Neal's really on to the strength of the Necron army here: 'popcorn' Monoliths.

I really need to prod my brother into posting, as he plays Necrons and still thinks they're overpowered.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:23 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 27 2007,20:01)
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I think somebody awhile ago tried it and slaughtered their opponent, but it was probably around version 4.1 or even before (no cap on the attacks). ?If it is that worrisome you can always cap the number of monoliths to match the number of Phalanx formations or something to that effect.

I suggested a "1 per Phalanx" limitation for the Monolith some time ago.

I can't remember whether I did here or on the epic_fr forum, though.  :p

I still think it would be a good idea and would go a long way towards balancing the Necron army.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:51 pm 
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I can't imagine the limitation would hurt the list for most players.  I'd say it would only 'ruin' the list for the powergamers who would employ a devious popcorn army as described above.  I'd support it.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:08 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 28 2007,10:51)
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I can't imagine the limitation would hurt the list for most players.

I concur.

I also think it is more fitting anyway since the Monoliths seem to be phalanx support units anyway.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:29 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 28 2007,18:51)
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I can't imagine the limitation would hurt the list for most players. ?I'd say it would only 'ruin' the list for the powergamers who would employ a devious popcorn army as described above. ?I'd support it.

Most Necron armies I've seen have 3-4 Phalanxes... 3-4 Monoliths almost seems a little... light.

I still think they should be around 100 points, they're definitely better than a Black Legion Land Raider for 75 points!

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:36 pm 
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Well, if you see more Monoliths than that then your opponent must be Pipboy and his amazing replicating Monolith machine. :)

Do you think that the 1-per Phalanx would unduly hurt the Necrons?  Bear in mind all the 4.2 changes and the proposed changes being made suggested for the SR adn initiative?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:42 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 28 2007,21:36)
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Well, if you see more Monoliths than that then your opponent must be Pipboy and his amazing replicating Monolith machine. :)
I've been trying to get in a game or two with him since I moved in July... the 'Boy is impossible to pin down for a game... to add insult to injury, as one of my groomsmen, he spent a couple days living here and we've had him and his girlfriend over for dinner twice!  *laugh*

Do you think that the 1-per Phalanx would unduly hurt the Necrons? ?Bear in mind all the 4.2 changes and the proposed changes being made suggested for the SR adn initiative?

I think 1-per would be hard on the Necrons.  

With three Phalanxes, that's a mere 3 Portals, 1 more if they've got a Tomb Complex, and maybe one more for a War Engine Portal... just remember it's not just Phalanxes coming out of those things!  

They lose two Monoliths and not a lot of the army is returning in subsequent turns.

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