Attack Bikes Vote |
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote  Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:42 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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If each attack bike selected gave a discount of 10pts to the biker formation, would this balance Attack Bikes?
As we all know, taking 5 attack bikes under the current pricing structure is a loser's choice (Why not take 5 Land Speeders with multi-meltas and skimmer instead?).
The only real use for Attack Bikes right now is in laying a Blast Marker on enemy formations; they are overpriced if you take 5 in a squadron.
Note that there would be no practical benefit in points by adding only a single Attack Bike, as the 10pts saved would be essentially useless. Thus the current Marine armylist style isn't affected by this proposal.
The only benefit comes when you take 3 Attack Bikes in a formation of 5 units, when you get 30pts to spend elsewhere (One Razorback), or a full 5 Attack Bikes(Where you get 50pts).
Thus:
5 Biker units - 200pts
4 Biker units & 1 Attack Bike - 190pts
5 Attack Bikes - 150pts
So, does -10pts per Attack Bike balance Attack Bikes?
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Markconz
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:18 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand
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Well I give it a tentative yes, but I'm concerned that 5 for 150 may be too good. 10 attack bikes in two formations for the price of a tactical formation? 6 tacs and 3 rhinos, or 2 x 5 attack bikes?
Maybe -5 each would be better, at which point you start to wonder whether it is really worth bothering with. I guess that would give you an extra 25 points if you took a pure attack bike formation. Think I'd prefer -10 or nothing.
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J0k3r
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:24 am |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm
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Location: Edinburgh, UK
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I would suggest boosting the attack bikes rather than lowering the cost for simplicity. What tweaks would be equivalent to a 5-10 point decrease? Upping speed and shootieness? or something else?
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:29 am |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
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Location: North Yorkshire
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The question arises, what if a person plays with multiple formations of bikes & attack bikes rather than just one or two. Still thinking about my vote.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:42 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Upping speed and shootieness? or something else?
Upping the speed is possible, but upping the weapons is largely impossible.
It only has a heavy bolter for ranged weapons, and increasing the FF rating to 3+ hardly seems justified.
The question arises, what if a person plays with multiple formations of bikes & attack bikes rather than just one or two. Still thinking about my vote.
Aye I thought about it pretty carefully, but I believe that Attack Bikes have so many other detracting factors that such a list would be balanced.
- They're light vehicles, so everything can shoot at them.
- They only have a short-ranged AP5+ ranged attack (No AT at all).
- They have to take dangerous terrain tests when crossing terrain.
- Etc. 
Bike squads are worth more because they're faster and are useful in Engagements (The Marine's habitual environment), Attack Bikes are worth less because despite having a single ranged shot, their utility in Engagements is limited.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:48 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand
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Note E&C that in the handbook and other commonly used amendments attack bikes are already up to 35cm speed.
Nonetheless I believe they still are overpointed if left as is.
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rpr
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:58 am |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
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I would go for the upped speed instead of unwieldy -10 pts.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:06 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand
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To be balanced I believe they need more than just upped speed, that was the point I was trying (unsuccessfully!) to communicate.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:40 pm |
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Agreed, but for some reason many people favour changing them to infantry (Which is impossible, given the pack sizes set by SG).
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:42 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I think this idea has merit, but I'd like to see it tested rather than theory-hammered.
One concern for me would be a popcorn list of Speeders and Attack Bikes. All speeders was shown to be an effective force, even a bit nasty.
A mixed Attack Bike/Speeder force would function exactly like the all-Speeder list, except that it would have more formations. The ABs lose some MW attacks, but FF4+ is almost as good as MWFF5+ and a lot of the formations will need to initiate assaults anyway. They would also be more flexible in placing BMs (extra range). The only real difference is in the Scout ability, and as long as there are plenty of Speeder formations that isn't going to be missed. Overall, that seems like a modest drop in overall ability, with a -25% point drop for the Attack Bike formations.
Instead of 13 Speeders + SC at 2700 points, you could have
8 Speeders, 6 Attack Bikes, SC, and 2 Chaplains/Librarians. That's an extra formation of comprable ability and 2 extra characters for the same cost.
I abstained, pending playtest and batreps.
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Neal
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:49 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I forgot until I looked in the handbook thread...
If LR upgrades are dropped to 85 points, a single -10 points could take you from 75 points to 85 points.
Not a big deal, obviously, but just pointing out that the interaction of other changes being considered might have additional ramifications.
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Neal
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:51 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Indeed, well worth bearing in mind.
I'll try playtesting attack bikes a little more (I think I can put two formations on the table if I borrow some from my White Scars army).
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Crabowl
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Post subject: Attack Bikes Vote Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:57 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm
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Location: Finland
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Would it be possible to make "Attack Bike Formation" that costs 175 points and only has Commander upgrade, and leave the normal bikes the way they are? If someone wants flexibility in their bike formation they pay more and you can always use smaller font to make them fit on the page. 150 is too cheap to my liking and I voted no.
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