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Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
1. MW4+ Ignore cover 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
2. AP3+/AT4+, Small Arms +1EA Ignore cover 22%  22%  [ 6 ]
3. Something else (state below) 30%  30%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 27

Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:20 pm 
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Average number of hits by 4 Vindicators against infantry in cover: 2.6
Average number of hits by 4 Predator Destructors against infantry in cover: 2

So under perfect circumstances, the Vindicators score 0.6 extra hits over Predators. Pardon me if I'm not impressed; The supposed cover-breaking specialist is looking distinctly average here.

In addition Vindicators are so slow, that in practice they'll be Doubling to get to their target, whilst Predators will be advancing. Simple Meta-analysis. :)


IIRC Hena you've said you wouldn't take Vindicators in your army even with your proposed mods?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Uh huh.

Vindicators are condemned to sitting on the shelf until the next rules review if we go with the conservative option (Hena's proposal).

The vote seems to have found a non-conservative consensus, at least.

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Soren
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:44 pm 
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Make 'em BP1 ^^

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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:07 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 13 2007,15:30)
QUOTE
And the MW change would do the thing that I hate. They would become worse against units in cover. So all in all, MW can only hurt. That causes them to be more like line tanks, which are used to engage heavy armoured targets in open.

In my Scions list I tend to use them quite much (in the last weekends tournament had them in my other tactical).

The proposal above will certainly not make them worse against units in cover, rather they will be better than they currently are in the majority of situations. They will also be better against armoured units whether or not those are in cover - as they should be.

Whatever your personal preference for your own individual fan list, an opinion supported by much more than just yourself is needed.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:16 pm 
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MW 4+ no ignore cover say I

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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:14 am 
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Hena your statements are inaccurate, misleading and ignore important contextual factors.  I'm not wasting my time with them anymore (for the umpteenth time...).  It's just going around in circles.

Furthermore you should realise that most people want meta-analysis on demolishers in the main tournament lists, not just whatever lists you dream up that make it 'ok' in the opinion of just you.  

Clearly most people think your idea isn't any good. Clearly stated reasons have been provided as to why that is so. Take a hint and let it go.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:04 am 
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For one thing the only person who seems to have playtested the Scions list with Vindicators is yourself.

For another, just because the Vindicator may work in your list, that doesn't help Epic in general if it doesn't work in every other Marine list out there (And to be flatly honest, I don't think it works in the Scions list anyway).

Vindicators are truly crap, and the Demolisher cannon in general is underperforming. There's a strong consensus on this.

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Soren
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:29 am 
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Demolisher has superb sidearms, decend speed for his tactical role COMBINED with very good armor. He is worth the points.

Vindicator has none of the features above, as he has no sidearms, low speed for  his tactical role and a crappy armor.

There is really no reason to complain about the Demolisher, but three reasons to complain about the Vindicator.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:31 am 
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The Demolisher in the ImperialGuard is agood tank because it has the the same speed as the standart Leman Russ which it is usually attached to AND it has powerful secondary weapons (2 PlasmaCannons) AND it has ReinforcedArmour.

In the SpaceMarine list the slow speed is really a hindrance. That it has only 4+ save without ReinforcedArmour and when on its own it comes in low numbers makes the Vindicator a very crappy tank.

If you SO despise a MW shot for the Demolisher what about AP2+/AT3+ IgnoreCover?

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Soren
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:42 am 
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I always asked myself which voices snarreled around while the game designers constructed the Vindicator and the Demolisher stats. Even without knowing much about the background it?s pretty obvious that the concept of the Vindicator is crap compared to the Demolisher. I cannot imagine a reason why this should be so. Even with the focus on FF in the Marine list it should be very clear that this tank is not a "to take" option in any case. So if we want to focus again to strenghten the Marines FF ans CC values (which I think is a very good way) just give him a FF ignore cover maybe an extra attack. (my BP1 proposal is not very beloved I think :D ) 3+ Armor save and let his speed on 20cm to justify the 3+. (name it ablative street fighting armor with rivets or something like this).

So we would have following stats without changing the main gun (important thing!!)

AV 20cm 3+ FF4+ CC6+
Demolisher Cannon AP3+/AT4+ 30cm (ignore cover?)
AND
FF +1 Extra Attack Ignore Cover.

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