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let us change the cost for harridan

Napalm

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:38 pm

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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:16 am
Posts: 654
Location: Paris, France

With the infiltration rules, the harridan get only one normal move with infiltration, not double.
Gargoyles get the double, but both lose 5cm of movement with disembarkment penalty, so on a normal 1m20 table, gargoyles cannot be as close marines as this !

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:39 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Napalm @ Aug. 06 2007,14:38)

QUOTE

ok, our table is 110 cm wide. we always play with a 15 cm wide set up zone both sides. my marines are at the edge and the harridan+gargoyles too. 80 cm left, right?

the haridan moves up to 20 cm to infiltrate and the gargoyles 35 cm. now there are 25 cm between the gargoyles and my marines...i would say that they could feel the breath. and of course i mean it in he figurative sense!

and you are right, marines can get closer then the gargoyes by using thunderhawks and drop pods...but everyone can shoot at them first! if i had the choice, i would prefer infiltration with my marines to get only 25 cm away from my enemy..or better i would move less and stay 35 cm in front of the enemy line and put my marines in a forest or building to get cover and put my devastators on FF...

i do not want to discuss the infiltration rule but want to indicate tat te inflarton rule is a bigting and the low cost harridan has his ability! and te infitation of the gargoyls is additional to this!

so I do not know what you want to say me?

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Napalm

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:18 pm

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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:16 am
Posts: 654
Location: Paris, France

Well, that it's a bit unusual to see 9 harridan on the table

Have you tried some scouts?
You can trya Legion with multiple chapter, and play mutiple terminator & scout company.

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zap123

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:57 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

(darkangel @ Aug. 06 2007,09:13)

QUOTE

maybe we can discuss he can take 1 per 4000 points of army? :laugh:

honest, if you increase the cost to 200 then you will also reduce the max. quantity of harridans in his army!

Folks, we are talking about 50 points. my arguments are clear and described well! i gave you informations who 7 harridans did bring us to howl.

i think zap do not like me

The Unique bit is in the Core Rules and I could certainly see some justification in using it more often for some of the stronger units in the game.

Anything taken to extremes can be unbalancing. A Squat army made up entirely of Guild Biker companies would be hideous, as would a Tau army with 80% flyers. We can either go to extreme lengths with specific rules to make it impossible to build armies like that, or individual play groups can "encourage" people not to build bulls&%t armies like that. I think the later is the obvious solution.

BTW, I don't not like you. I do think that sometimes you face issues because of the particular way you play the game that the rest of us who play the game more as it was intended don't have. Despite that you still feel the need to change it for the rest of us.

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:12 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Napalm @ Aug. 06 2007,23:18)

QUOTE

9 harridan are not unusual. last game we played 12.000 points each side. orks, tyranids and chaos against marines, guards, eldar and squats. the ork player gave our tyranid player 1.000 from his contingent. so our tyranid player could shop for 5.000 points...9 harridan = 1.350 points. probably now he has 12 harridan and this works too. so i keep my opinion 200 points for 1 harridan is not too much. and this will reduce the quantity automatic. i think it is the wrong way to give an army a limit in using some models. in my point of view the cost should rule this automatic, too!

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:29 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(zap123 @ Aug. 07 2007,00:57)

QUOTE

(darkangel @ Aug. 06 2007,09:13)

QUOTE

maybe we can discuss he can take 1 per 4000 points of army? :laugh:

The Unique bit is in the Core Rules and I could certainly see some justification in using it more often for some of the stronger units in the game.

Anything taken to extremes can be unbalancing. ?A Squat army made up entirely of Guild Biker companies would be hideous, as would a Tau army with 80% flyers. ?We can either go to extreme lengths with specific rules to make it impossible to build armies like that, or individual play groups can "encourage" people not to build bulls&%t armies like that. ?I think the later is the obvious solution.

BTW, I don't not like you. ?I do think that sometimes you face issues because of the particular way you play the game that the rest of us who play the game more as it was intended don't have. ?Despite that you still feel the need to change it for the rest of us.

hey zap, do you you if the superheavy damage table do apply to tempest, too? i ask, because netepic has not increased the cost value, but the imperial...an idea?

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zap123

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:05 pm

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

Yup, it applies to Tempests too. And before you start, the Tempest cost is perfectly fine where it is now!!!!

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:33 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(zap123 @ Aug. 07 2007,15:05)

QUOTE

Yup, it applies to Tempests too. ?And before you start, the Tempest cost is perfectly fine where it is now!!!!

oh zap, i see you know me but i do not talk frightful...at least not the hole day

i just want to reconstruct the thought of the beginng of netepic. you know both, the imperial and eldar heavy tanks cost 500 points in sm2. then you looked a long time on the cards hmmmm..hmmm..and someone said: "hey i have it, we increase the costs for the imperial tanks to 650, because penetraiting is to strong!" i studied the statistics and the only reason to do it is the penetraiting weapon, right?

and back to topic, am i right, that the cost for harridan stay at 150, because you do not think that they should cost 200...or is there a kind of jury which wil check it independently?

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:41 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

(darkangel @ Aug. 07 2007,10:33)

QUOTE

[i just want to reconstruct the thought of the beginng of netepic. you know both, the imperial and eldar heavy tanks cost 500 points in sm2. then you looked a long time on the cards hmmmm..hmmm..and someone said: "hey i have it, we increase the costs for the imperial tanks to 650, because penetraiting is to strong!" i studied the statistics and the only reason to do it is the penetraiting weapon, right?

I could be wrong, but I believe the cost of Super Heavies was increased from 500 points because of the Supe Heavy damage table. Super Heavies in NetEpic can take more punishment than in SM2, which would indicate that a point increase was warranted.

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:55 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 07 2007,15:41)

QUOTE

yes, you are right...and this is the reason, why i do not understand, why the tempest do still cost 500 !!!!!

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zap123

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:03 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

I have said previously that I agree the Harridan price could go up if you continue to use the old flyer rules. ?I just hope no one does.

The issue I have is when you pick 2 different units from 2 very different army lists and then do a direct comparison of them and say "this is X points so that should also be X points". ?That sort of comparison is fine if you are comparing a Vindicator in the Imperial list vs a Vindicator in a Space Marine list. ?As I think Loofnick pointed out, you have to take into account the synergy with other units when comparing. There are enough similarlities that you can make that Vindicator comparison, but I don't think the simplistic approach works for Shadowsword vs Tempest. If you start doing simplistic 1 to 1 comparisons across lists you could keep going forever.

For the IG superheavies, I thought the Company cost went up because people thought there was too big a discount over the individual tank cost, and to reflect the different points costs. ?(not that I agree a Stormblade is worth more than a Shadowsword!).....though that was a long time ago. ?

I think it is pretty difficult to make a 1 to 1 comparison between something in the IG list (massive formations, absolutely amazing choice, tons of long range direct and indirect firepower units) and the Eldar. ?I also think that while most lists got significantly stronger from SM2 to NE5, the Eldar are about the only mainstream army that was heavily reduced in capability. ?They need to be beefed back up, not further penalised IMO.

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primarch

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:39 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

Game balance is one of those eternal issues that really never get settled. Zap, does have good points regarding that as you change the rules, there are many unforeseen effects, synergy changes, effects of unit change. Only actual playtest data can really settle any doubts. While some things are obvious to fix, others are less so. Heck, throughout the years we sometimes changed things we thought were underpowered only to find that then they were too good, or viceversa.

The easiest route is to leave prices roughly the way they are and test, test, test them.

Good point on the eldar too. For years they got dumped on as being SOOOO good. Now that all other armies have been "revamped", I also wonder if the eldar have gotten the "short end of the stick" and I agree whatever "perks" they still got they should keep.

Primarch

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Juffo-Wup

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:07 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:10 am
Posts: 102
Location: BrisVegas, Australia

As has been said before, its not a simple matter of comparing two similar units from two completely different lists. When revamping the Tau it wasn't a simple matter of adding this and that and costing it similarly to Imperial or Eldar units. Anything that can potentially give the Tau a CC ability has either been heavily restricted (hence removing Kroot as part of the Tau list and making them usable only as Tau allies) or costed up (as with the Tau light skimmers). This is to prevent people overcoming the inherent weakness and unique flavour of the list.

All lists have bargain units in them. For the Tau its Battlesuits, for Chaos its the Chaos Marines and some of the Daemons, for the IG its their artillery, for the Orks its the Gargants, etc. These are the units that are the character of the army and this encourages people to use more of them. The Harridan is a very characterful unit for the Tyranids and based on your comparison, I don't see that the Harridan is out of place in its cost. I think 150pts with the amended flyer rules is pretty fair. If after some playtesting it is being constantly shown to be too good for its cost then it should be revamped. remember that we have just put up new flyer rules for use. I don't think that any flyer costs should change until we have had a chance to see how they perform under the new rules. My vote for changing the cost of the Harridan (or any flyer until further testing has occurred) is an emphatic "No".

Also the situations you have shown us with someone fielding 9 harridans in a 12000pt game is a bit extreme. If they are such a problem for your group, then start throwing in lots of cheap AA units or a few Interceptors and curb his use of them. Any force can appear to be "too good/too cheap" when someone uses an extreme example of them. I did that recently with an excessive number of Tau flyers and zap conceded before the game started as he had no real AA or Interceptor cover to deal with them and battle would have been very one-sided. Did this mean my flyers were too cheap? Not really as it was simply the rock-paper-scissors effect. Had he had more AA or Interceptors, the outcome may have been completely different.

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darkangel

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:33 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Juffo-Wup @ Aug. 08 2007,05:07)

QUOTE

ok, i agree with you all, first we will try the new floater/flyer rules in our next battle and then i will be back again here to report.

we will meet the next saturday to confer the whole new rules and how we will manage the terrain situation and many more.

due to the harridan:
you say that the harridan is ok with 150 points if we will play to the the new floater/flyer rules. and our next game will show it. but i can hear our squat player howl. he can argue that his overloard is now to expensive for 250 because of the new floater/flyer rules, too! and honest, i can not argue to this, because he is right!

due to the tempest:
i know that it is not easy to put all units to the right points and perhaps i am wrong, but 6 tempest for 900 points and 6 shadowswords for 1300 points is a bit to much. you know, it would be ok, if the heavy damage table would only apply to the imperial tanks, then i can understand your decision and argue that to our ig player, but honest, how can i explain our ig player that it is ok, that your tanks cost 400 points more, after 12 shoots from the tempest company desroyed 2 whole imperial companies!

due to our game:
you are right, our game is not the normal one but it is perfect! we play 7! races, 7 player, all can play their models the same time, a variety without an end! we meet a week before to discuss our strategy, we play 12 hours fun the whole day all 6 weeks! 12.000 points is a normal value for our games (maybe 4x3.000 points the one side and 3x4.000 points the other). everyone tries to win, so everyone takes the best units he has! 9 harridan, 6 overloards, 2 tempest companies, a lot titans...and in my opinion the points by oneself have to rule this and make sure that the battle is in balance at all.

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zap123

Post subject: let us change the cost for harridan

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:41 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

I should slap myself for being so slow....but nowhere in the NE5.0 Tyranid list does it say Harridans Regenerate!

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