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Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
1. MW4+ Ignore cover 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
2. AP3+/AT4+, Small Arms +1EA Ignore cover 22%  22%  [ 6 ]
3. Something else (state below) 30%  30%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 27

Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:50 pm 
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Attach a Vindicator to a Tactical formation and it's situation changes.


Or attach 3 Razorbacks for a much greater firepower, utility & survivability boost for the same cost.

And besides move 4 Vindicators within support fire range and shoot to make the BMs and kill a few targets.

The Vindicators are gonna be doubling to get there (Even at 25cm speed), and they're gonna kill hardly anything.

Then retain and engage with Infantry.

Devestators with a Librarian do the same job for the same price, and come with superior FF support.

Not a bad combination.

Yes it is.


And what's wrong with being a BM layer?

Get some scouts. Not four hugely overpriced, underperforming gun trucks.



Do you know why I had to drop the price of Leman Russ Thunderers down to 40 points a piece (As compared to 60pts for normal Lemans) in the DKoK armylist to get people to even consider taking them?

Because gun trucks with just a Demolisher Cannon on the front, even with a 4+ Reinforced Armour Save, are rubbish.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:58 pm 
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Since all of the dice rolls involve a single D6 we are talking about flat distributions of probability.  Given a large enough sample size (many, many turns of firing over many, many games) if you have one weapon that automatically hits, two weapons that have a 4+ to hit, 3 weapons that have a 5+ to hit, or six weapons that have a 6+ to hit they should all have equal performance on average.


Yep, but you have to admit that a predator is going to approach statistical norms quicker than a vindicator, because each game they play, predators are going to roll three times as many dice.

It's a slightly wolly concept, but one I feel has to be admitted.


Why would the Space Marines tolerate a vehicle that is slower than all of their other Rhino based vehicles

Because it brings much heavier firepower to the battle than they can normally obtain.




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Flogus
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:24 pm 
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MA4+, +1 extra MA FF  attack
or
AP3+/AC4+ Ignore covers, +1 Ignore covers FF attack
Both with a reduction of the Vindicator FF from 4+ to 5+ (Leman Russ Demolisher stay the same, but at higher cost, +50pts ?)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:30 pm 
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I think giving Demolishers +1FF attack with MW status is too scary to consider. :D

Demolishers are medium-range weapons IMHO, not medium & short range, ala Multimeltas.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:53 pm 
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Since all of the dice rolls involve a single D6 we are talking about flat distributions of probability.  Given a large enough sample size (many, many turns of firing over many, many games) if you have one weapon that automatically hits, two weapons that have a 4+ to hit, 3 weapons that have a 5+ to hit, or six weapons that have a 6+ to hit they should all have equal performance on average.



Yep, but you have to admit that a predator is going to approach statistical norms quicker than a vindicator, because each game they play, predators are going to roll three times as many dice.

It's a slightly wolly concept, but one I feel has to be admitted.

You'll approach a significant sample size for evaluating the Predators only in a quicker fashion, and with the larger number of dice rolled you'll notice it sooner, but the number of dice rolled is not the determining equalizer.  You have to get an equal number of turns firing between the Vindicator and the Predator Destructor, and get a significant sample size with the Vindicator to see that both tanks should be equal in firepower.

I think part of what you are talking about is psychological.  When you fire the Vindicator each individual shot has more importance to you than the pile of Heavy Bolter and Autocannon shots that pour out of the Predators.  Never mind that the Vindicator has a better chance to hit and the Predator a worse chance, you notice the misses with the Vindicator and the hits with the Predator due to their relative rarity.

Why would the Space Marines tolerate a vehicle that is slower than all of their other Rhino based vehicles


Because it brings much heavier firepower to the battle than they can normally obtain.

Yeah, but I just proved that the weapons loads on the Vindicator and the Predator are for the most part equal.  If the weapons loads are equal in firepower, all of the other stats except for speed are equal, and the points costs are the same, then why would you not want to make the speeds equal?  You want to slow it down so you can increase the firepower, contradictory to the basic tenets of how the Space Marines fight on an Operational scale?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:57 pm 
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Yeah, but I just proved that the weapons loads on the Vindicator and the Predator are for the most part equal.


Yep... unless you hit them up with MW status and leave their movement speed at 20cm... according to your system, that leaves Vindicators marginally more powerful, but slower...



You want to slow it down ... ?

Anyone got Imperial Armour Volume II and can quote the 'technical' Vindicator & Rhino speeds for us?

I can't remember offhand but it could help the debate, either way.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:14 pm 
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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Rhino&Razorback: Road 70kph/Offroad 55kph
Predator&Whirlwind: 68/50 kph
Vindicator: 64/48kph
LandRaider, Helios & Prometheus: 55/48kph
Crusader: 50/41kph

Land Speeder & Tornado : 350kph
Typhoon: 330kph
Tempest: 300kph

Obvioulsy for calculating speed in Epic the offroad values should be used and the LandSpeeders speed is the maximum speed = when it uses a march action in epic.
But if i see this then the LandRaider and Vindicator should have their speed swapped.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:28 pm 
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the LandRaider and Vindicator should have their speed swapped.


I'm cool with that, though I suspect many wouldn't be. :D

In absentia, MW4+




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:28 am 
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That shot is at 7+ (same for Devastators and/or Razorbacks).


That doesn't really matter, since we already agreed that Vindis are only really useful for laying a BM and then supporting fire.

two kills.

Which is pretty lame.


Costs 25 points more (as the experimental 275 cost is taken into account)

And in the ensuing Firefight, which is the important bit, they're qualitatively worse.

FF4+ for the Vindis.

FF3+ for the Devestators, with Rhinos and either a razorback or a librarian, depending on the points cost used at the time.


Again Vindicators can do damage when used properly.

By your own admission, they're going to kill 2 unarmoured infantry targets when doubling, on average, and then inflict two hits in a Firefight.

On the other hand, a formation of Devestators with a HB Razorback is going to fire 8 shots which hit on 7's and one which hits on a six... there's a moderate chance of getting one hit there, but as we've said, they only need to lay a BM and support the incoming Engagement anyway, at which point they're much, much better than Vindicators.


Again Vindicators can do damage when used properly.

Not with four shots they can't.

Whirlwinds can Sustain and hit on 4's with a Template.

Vindicators are so short ranged and comparatively slow that they're going to be doubling most of the time, even at 25cm speed, and then they are likely to get two hits.

Yup, again they don't compare.


MW status for Demolisher Cannons gives Vindicators a role in the army list, and matches the background better.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:34 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Jul. 26 2007,21:53)
QUOTE
Since all of the dice rolls involve a single D6 we are talking about flat distributions of probability.  Given a large enough sample size (many, many turns of firing over many, many games) if you have one weapon that automatically hits, two weapons that have a 4+ to hit, 3 weapons that have a 5+ to hit, or six weapons that have a 6+ to hit they should all have equal performance on average.



Yep, but you have to admit that a predator is going to approach statistical norms quicker than a vindicator, because each game they play, predators are going to roll three times as many dice.

It's a slightly wolly concept, but one I feel has to be admitted.


You'll approach a significant sample size for evaluating the Predators only in a quicker fashion, and with the larger number of dice rolled you'll notice it sooner, but the number of dice rolled is not the determining equalizer.  You have to get an equal number of turns firing between the Vindicator and the Predator Destructor, and get a significant sample size with the Vindicator to see that both tanks should be equal in firepower.

I think part of what you are talking about is psychological.  When you fire the Vindicator each individual shot has more importance to you than the pile of Heavy Bolter and Autocannon shots that pour out of the Predators.  Never mind that the Vindicator has a better chance to hit and the Predator a worse chance, you notice the misses with the Vindicator and the hits with the Predator due to their relative rarity.
I want to come back to this if I may Blarg.


In your system, are you only taking the dice rolls into account in isolation of each other then?


It seems to me that you're not applying any modifiers for hulls with multiple shots (Ie: Predators), to take into account that although there may be the same statistical probability of getting 1 hit... Predators also have a truely infinitely higher probability of getting 2 or occasionally 3 hits each.

It seems to me you're not taking this possibility into account in your model?


Also, I'm interested to see what the numbers say when Predators and Vindicators both Sustain.

A quick mental guesstimate gives Predator Destructors a 50%-60% edge in firepower (And even applying the Ignore Cover bonus to Vindicators, they don't have a hope of closing the capability gap).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:42 am 
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Support (with the Ignore Cover on weapon as suggested)


And how are you going to deal with that on the Baneblade?

I've never been quite convinced by the 'different ammunition' argument.

It's a gamey fudge.


Plus, by your own stats, the Vindicators only just become equal in killing power in a Firefight to a devestator formation against their ideal target, yet they are easier to outnumber.

So even against an ideal target, they're worse than a Devestator formation that's attacking a severely sub-optimal target (4+ CS Orks).


Take away the Cover Save, and the disparity only grows clearer.

And they're slower (35cm vs 20/25).

And they're easier to break.

And they have a short range when firing (You have to be in counter-assault range to open fire).


Why are you taking artillery into this? That comparison only gets harder and more meaningless.

I'm looking at the Vindicator in context.

Just as you have to look at the Leman Russ Demolisher and the Baneblade in the context of their own army list.


IE:

The Thunderhawk's a good buy, right?

But what if it could only carry troops that had CC6+, FF6+ and cost 500 points for eight bases?

In that context, the Thunderhawk's crap. Get it?




The Vindicator is a truly terrible tank, but giving the main gun Macro-Weapon status will fix it.

As the vote shows, it's not an unpopular choice.




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