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Attack Bikes
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:09 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 26 2007,12:02)
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Make it better? :) Balance against LV status?

Part of me is just thinking that the speed +5cm is just enough,

They'd still be far inferior to Land Speeders, and thus we'd still never see formations of attack bikes being taken.

I think we have to just admit that they are inferior, and give a discount to players who take them.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:25 pm 
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I only witnessed once that a SpaceMarine player uses whole formations of AttackBikes. But only because he has 15 and not enough Bikes. ;)

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Thanks for the fast answers!

I've always played the attack bike with the very early (2005 or 2004) mounted infantry suggestion. I've played them also with one attack bike per unit. I change it later because they looked so poor (2 per basel look great).

The SG model supply is a problem not only by the bikes. Also by IG Artillery company (only 3 Manticores), Ork Warband (too few Grots) ...

If you want to make an attack bike formation you need 5 bike packs from SG. That's a problem only countered by buying some old attack bike blisters by Ebay (which contains 5 attack bikes).

For the Multi Melter: I saw them being traded in another thread or another forum. Perhaps these were only simple convertions.

I don't see 100% WYSIWYG very often, because, players don't convert their models for each weapon configurations (look at the ork gargants or stompas). Or take a look at the dreadnought (MM) or sentinels (LC) or tactical marine stands with a Sergeant instead of the Missile Launcher...

So 100% WYSIWYG won't work with my playgroup, and a little bit 'counst as' works just fine.


In my view the high armour save of infantry is because there numbers. 3 bikes to kill is harder than one. So 5+ save for a single bike would be also in discussion (even tue to slight reduction for beeing LV). I remember there was also a discussion of reducing the land speeders save.

To the LV suggestion, for me it would look like something as

Attack bike   LV speed 35cm  save 5+ CC5+ FF5+
Heavy Bolter       30cm   AP5+
per -15pts per upgrade taken

The stats are taken form the Ork Buggies/Wartraks, which have a a slightly better weapon AP5+/AT6+, but poor initiative value and no TSKNF.

With these states you would get a simmilar result as with the 2 model per unit.
Downsites would be to cheap activations or to weak formations. So perhaps 5 units for 150 or 8 for 225. Or 6 for 150, 8 for 200 (and perhaps CC6+).
 
Important to discuss: the purpuse of this unit/formation.

Edit: Typing error.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:45 pm 
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Ork Buggies/Wartraks have an armour value in Wh40k but AttackBikes have infantry stats (increased ones because of Bike status). The AttackBike is in fact a very unique vehicle in Wh40k because no other army has a similar vehicle.

I too struggle to understand what role the AttackBike has to fulfill what a LandSpeeder cannot perform.

I summarised their stats and abilities in the very first posting of this thread.




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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:54 pm 
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@BlackLegion
My LV suggestion was for them, if they weren't infantry. I took the Buggies stats because there isn't much option for putting the three value of the small vehicle and also because the ork LVs are at near point costs as the single LV suggestion from E&C.
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Guest
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:03 pm 
Mount 'em two to a stand?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:11 pm 
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I too struggle to understand what role the AttackBike has to fulfill what a LandSpeeder cannot perform.



Drop them by 10pts per Attack Bike and they're no longer in direct competition.




Mount 'em two to a stand?

Which'd totally screw with newbie players.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Which'd totally screw with newbie players.

Which is done to the new players newertheless examples:

IG:
Artillery company (not playable combination and only 3 Manticores),
Valkyries and Deathstrike in expansive halb packs.
Rought Riders and Stormtroopers only as expensive metal
Ork:
Ork Warband (too few Grots),
Stompas only together with expensive Supa  Stompa (and vice-versa),
SM:
Mixed Landspeeder,
Mixed Dreadnought and have weapons other than in their rules (eg MM)
Razorbacks and Predator only in mix
Scouts and Termies only as expensive metal, same with the tanks
Eldar:
Only 6 shining spears par package
Only two units of each aspectwarrior type in each warhost

I don't think the attack bikes matter any more compared to this list of examples. And if it matters, use the count as rule suggested.


To the Multi-Melta Attack bikes: I've quite a few of them. They were together with the heavy bolter ones in the old blisters. The difference is not big, so if we would consider two types of LV attack bikes (MM and HB) it wouldn't good to see on the battlefield. So what is with WYSIWYG? Especially also for the dreads.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:31 pm 
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Which is done to the new players newertheless examples:


Most of your examples are not really valid points, for example, half of your points are that the models are 'expensive'.

Aforesaid noobie is in the wrong hobby if he's looking for cheap. :D




To the Multi-Melta Attack bikes: I've quite a few of them. They were together with the heavy bolter ones in the old blisters. The difference is not big, so if we would consider two types of LV attack bikes (MM and HB) it wouldn't good to see on the battlefield. So what is with WYSIWYG? Especially also for the dreads.

The handling of Dreadnought sales by SG is not a particularly clever example to follow.




Ultimately, if Attack Bikes are changed to Mounted Infantry, that means that noobies won't even get a single usable formation when they buy a pack of bikers.

That's not something we should push for unless it's completely unavoidable.




As to MM Bikes, I have quite a few too, and I'd love to see them incorporated into the core rules... but it ain't gonna happen.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:52 pm 
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Let me say it so:
I don't want to restrict the options of making the attack bikes infantry because the SG games made a design and sales mistake.

My hope would be that the production would change in the end if the demand is high enought. So if the SM players want the attack bike as mounted infantry and need the models, then the might be saled in a pack of ten.

I don't think that the attack bikes are casted on a frame together with other figures so that won't be a problem. For the dreads it is a problem, the frame contains one laser and 2 times the other weapontri (so the have to change the casting frame or remelt the unused weaponpiece).

If SG sales remain the same, both LV and Inf total attack bike formations are not easy/cheap to get. (The Inf solution would be more expensive I agree, if not using a counts as rule).

@E&C
I would like to see your oppinion to the infantry attack bikes assuming we don't have these SG-sales problems or assuming the players like using proxies.

So that's from me for now. Give the folk some to reply to our suggestions and the sales-problem.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:37 am 
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@E&C
I would like to see your oppinion to the infantry attack bikes assuming we don't have these SG-sales problems or assuming the players like using proxies.


I think it's a fine solution if all you want is an efficient blast marker layer.

But you'll never see any more than one attack bike per squadron without giving a discount, they're simply not worth it at 200 points.




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Soren
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:26 am 
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Give em MM upgrade. Then they are worth the costs. Else you will get some popcorn formations if you discount them by 10 to 15 pts per attack bike. (125 pts for a formation is a real discount to get some activations)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:33 am 
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Give em MM upgrade. Then they are worth the costs


Nope, they're still inferior to the identically-costed Land Speeders.

They need to be cheaper or they're a non-starter, it's simple.




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Guest
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:34 am 
Attack bikes with MM - tell me why I should get them instead of Land Speeders?
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