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Hey, who broke the Orks?

zap123

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:15 am

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I decided to get serious about putting togther a proper Ork army or two and decided to re-read the NetEpic 5.0 rules to see if I need to paint up any more clans. ?I was kinda gobsmacked to read P4 Army Construction and Mobs. ?In summary, I'm really surprised that in the SM2 days if you say bought the following:

Kult of Speed
Gobsmashas
Gobsmashas
Nobs Warbikes
Spleenrippas

you would end up with 1 mob costing 900 points and with a break point of 19 and giving up 9VPs. ?Under the new rules as written in the Ork book, you would end up with

1 Mob of 10 Buggies (break point 6?, VP ?...2?)
1 Mob of 10 Nobs Warbikes (break point 6, presumably 4VPs)
1 Mob of 10 Gobsmashas (break point 6, VP 2)
1 Mob of 3 Spleenrippas (BP 2, VP 1)

Is this just a 'mix up' or was it deliberate? It is a major change in the way Orks work.

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Juffo-Wup

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:31 am

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Actually, I think you are either reading it wrong or its poorly written. The support cards still add to the BP and VPs of the Clan Card, so you still get a BP of 19 and 9VPs. Where the "Mobz" rule works is in how the detachments are formed. Under the old SM2 rules, each Buggy card was a separate detachment of 5 buggies and each one could run off on its own. Under the NetEpic rules, all the extra Buggy support cards join the main Buggy mob. So if you start with 10 and buy two extra buggy support cards, you get a mob of 20 buggies that all must maintain coherency.

The problem with your list you have described is that under the current NetEpic rules, the Kult of Speed cannot take the Gobsmashas or Spleenrippas as they are Evil Sunz only. No rule I have found in the current Ork book says that the Kult of Speed can take Evil Sunz only cards.

There are a number of ommissions in the Ork book I am curious about:

Why can the Kult of Speed no longer take up to 5 Mekboy Support cards?
Why can the Kult of Speed no longer take Evil Sunz only support cards?
How does the Mobs rule work on the Kult of Speed as it has two detachments of Buggies?
Why are Nobz Warbikes now forced to Mob up into big, unwieldy formations?

The Kult of Speed used to be the Ork's tactical edge. They were fast and easy to handle due to the formation sizes, especially the Nobz Warbikes. Now they are just as unwieldy as the rest of the Ork army. I don't have as much of a problem with this being done to the Buggies, but I don't like it for the Nobz Warbikes. I'd like to see the Nobz Warbikes exempted from the rule as it makes it a little easier for the Orks to maintain command across the table.

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zap123

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:54 am

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Ok, I miss-quoted it slightly....but the original message is still largely correct. In the example I cited (and ignoring the KoS/Evil Sunz bit for the time being) under the new rules as written in the Ork book, you would* end up with

1 Mob of 10 Buggies (part of clan card )
1 Mob of 10 Nobs Warbikes ( part of clan card, now break 11, VPs 6)

plus

1 Mob of 10 Gobsmashas (break point 6, VP 2)
1 Mob of 3 Spleenrippas (BP 2, VP 1)

Each of which does NOT count toward the clan card, and gives up their VP seperately. (see the second example on Page 4)

Now this may just be a really, really badly worded example, but that's how the rule reads. I like the "clumping" rule, but if the whole 3rd sentance should be struck from the second example on page 4 IMO.

* Actually, we make an assumption that there is still a Clan Card and these are all in a mob of mobs....they could equally split apart into seperate mobz based on the wording of the second example.

On Kels questions,

- KoS should certainly get 2 Mekboy slots as a minimum.
- I think the KoS should be able to take Evil Sunz stuff, but it is not a killer if this was a deliberate ommission.
- Should change the description to "Warbuggy Mob (10 buggies)"
- Nobz bikes should have to clump like everyone else....just have to change strategies a bit. It makes the Evil Sunz clan very attractive now. Anyway....you know all the tricks to get Orks some independant formations already

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primarch

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:49 pm

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Hi!

Poorly written and omissions as usual.

When this book is tackled it seems it will need much editing and corrections.

Primarch

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Juffo-Wup

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:42 am

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Yes. There is much in the Ork book that requires editing. Now where is OzTenaka when you need him, the slacker! Get back to editing!

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zap123

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:16 am

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Probably busy working out nefarious schemes with his new toys....I foresee much Chaos

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currsed

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:37 pm

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Hi everyone, first post

We played our first round of NetEpic 5.0 the other day (Marines vs. Orks), and the Mob issue came up exactly as described. After reading the postings above I am a bit irritated.

1. What exactly is the mob rule now, also in connection with the nob command rule?
Say, i got the following:

Kult of Speed
+ War Buggies Support Card
+ Nob Warbikes Support Card
+ Scorcher Support Card

The War Buggies add to the 10 warbuggies of the KoS, the nobz to the nobz, the scorchers add to...? And does the whole mob (buggies+scorchers) get ONE order counter, or do the scorchers count as seperate detachment? it's kinda confusing.

2. the hq unit states that you arent allowed to target them, also with barrage...does that mean that you can "protect" regular units by massing them around your hq units?

thanks a lot for your help.

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Warhead

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:27 pm

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After reading the SM Ork rules, NetEpic v4.1 and v5.0 again I have to say it is a hard concept to get across and harder still to put into writing but it looks like in v5.0 while trying to make it clearer the rules got tweaked in a seemingly innocent way that greatly changes how the Orks work. This does need looking at. In the next paragraph I give my own two cents worth but we really need Primarch to lay down the law on this one...

IMHO What's wrong with treating every different type of unit in a Mob as its own detachment but still retaining the Mob BP total. I would prefer separate orders supplied for Buggies, Warbikes and Scorchers etc (Nobs being HQ's not requiring orders) each detachment then activates, moves, fires and benefits from Mekboy cards (yeah, I know that isn't the current ruling but it should be) etc as a distinct unit but each unit must stay within command range to a Nobz Mob. While losses are subtracted from the Mobz total BP that they are all part of? (Again I know that isn't what v5.0 states but it should) As a house rule this is how I have been playing it and it does not play badly or as unbalanced as you may at first think. (If that was the reason behind the change) It also makes ALL Ork Mobz act the same way and cuts down on confusion.

If you want to send separate detachments off from the Kos then you have to pay for the Biker Nobz to keep command of them.

I've got to say I do not prefer v5.0 compared to v4.1 for many similar reasons as this, sorry. I like the new units but not the changes to company cards, organisation and costs. I am keeping my fingers crossed for NetEpic Gold.

2. the hq unit states that you arent allowed to target them, also with barrage...does that mean that you can "protect" regular units by massing them around your hq units?

I would say so. The Targeting HQ's rule is a core rule, a mechanism of the game to make it all work. It is a constant and may be only ignored in certain special situations like Snipers and they have their own rules that they must follow in order to do it.

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Juffo-Wup

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:42 pm

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1. What exactly is the mob rule now, also in connection with the nob command rule?
Say, i got the following:

Kult of Speed
+ War Buggies Support Card
+ Nob Warbikes Support Card
+ Scorcher Support Card

The War Buggies add to the 10 warbuggies of the KoS, the nobz to the nobz, the scorchers add to...? And does the whole mob (buggies+scorchers) get ONE order counter, or do the scorchers count as seperate detachment? it's kinda confusing.

I was sure we had cleared this up with the latest edition of the Ork Codex. I'll have to check to see if it was fixed. Here is the way your example works.

The Kult of Speed Company Card has the following formations:
One Mob of 10 Warbuggies.
One Mob of 10 Nobz Warbikes.
It has a Break Point of 8 and VPs of 4.

You added in:
One Warbuggy Support Card (5 Warbuggies; Break Point: +3 and VP: +1)
One Nobz Warbikes Support Card (5 Nobz Warbikes; Break Point: +3 and VP: +2)
One Scorcher Support Card (3 Scorchers; Break Point: +2 and VP: +1)

Your resulting Mobs will be as follows:
One Mob of 15 Warbuggies
One Mob of 15 Nobz Warbikes
One Mob of 3 Scorchers.

As there are no other Scorcher Mobs under the Kult of Speed they form their own new Mob. they do not join either the Nobz Warbikes or the Warbuggies Mobs. EACH Mob will receive orders and activate separately to the other Mobs. If you added a second Support Card of Scorchers to this same Kult of Speed, they will form up with the other Scorcher Mob to result in a Scorcher Mob that consists of 6 Scorcher models.

The Break Point and VPs of the Kult of Speed are increased as a whole. So you wind up with a Kult of Speed with the following:
Break Point: 8+3+3+2=16
VPs: 4+2+1+1=8

Does this make it clearer? In the current V5 rules (which I have open in front of me) the Mob and VP/BP rule for Orks has been clarified from the rules mentioned by zap123 above.

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Warhead

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:50 am

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Hi, Juffo-Wup

I understand what the rule states. I just don't like it, sorry. I know, I know. I am but one person and I'm only expressing an opinion so please don't take it personally. It isn't intended to frustrate or irritate intentionally despite it being the most likely result. However, I'm not having a go, honest.

The Break Point and VPs of the Kult of Speed are increased as a whole. So you wind up with a Kult of Speed with the following:
Break Point: 8+3+3+2=16
VPs: 4+2+1+1=8

Why not tally the total number of units at the end and then divide by two (rounding up to whole number) to find BP. In the example above this would give a BP of 17. It would be simpler and isn't that what all the other races do?.. In my humble opinion it's also less hassle which may appeal to most players.

As there are no other Scorcher Mobs under the Kult of Speed they form their own new Mob. they do not join either the Nobz Warbikes or the Warbuggies Mobs. EACH Mob will receive orders and activate separately to the other Mobs. If you added a second Support Card of Scorchers to this same Kult of Speed, they will form up with the other Scorcher Mob to result in a Scorcher Mob that consists of 6 Scorcher models.

Might I suggest you use the word formation as it was originally in v4.1 see below...
Army Construction
Like other armies the Ork army is limited to 5 Support Cards and one Special Card per company level card fielded. Company cards for Orks are called Clan Cards.

Unlike other armies, when an Ork Support Card is added to the company, instead of having a separate break point the total company break point and victory points are increased (unless otherwise indicated on the support card). Additionally, one of two things occurs: if there is a pre-existing formation of the same type the additional Support Card forms a large grouping (called a mob) with the pre-existing one. Such formations make all break tests and morale checks as a group and not separately.

Example: The Bad Moon Clan card provides a detachment of 15 Boyz and 4 Nobz stands. If additional Boyz Support Cards are added to the clan instead of forming an independent unit it is added to the pre-existing Boyz from the clan (making the total amount of Boyz 20, 15 from the clan and 5 from the Support Card.

When Support Cards are added of units that do not have a pre-existing formation in the clan, these units form a new formation in which further units of the same type are added as above.

Example: Using the example above if a detachment of battle wagons were added these would form a new formation since there were no battle wagon formations originally in the clan. Extra Battlewagon Support Cards that are added beyond the first expand the newly created formation (as described above).
It mentions that they are called Mobs but then goes on to refer to them as formations so as to be clearer. I'm not trying to insult the reader here by dumbing things down. As I said before it is a hard concept to explain in print and it is easy to misinterpret the meaning.

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zap123

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:55 am

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This is a really old thread...............pretty sure we sorted these issues out in the V5.1 edit. Certainly sorted to my satisfaction at least.

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primarch

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:20 am

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Quote: (zap123 @ 13 Aug. 2008, 20:55 )

This is a really old thread...............pretty sure we sorted these issues out in the V5.1 edit. Certainly sorted to my satisfaction at least.

Hi!

In any event, once the final drafts appear, the group of people whom wanted to read and edit it (which of course include several whom posted on this thread) will be able to make sure that we have what we actually need.

Primarch

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currsed

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:40 pm

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Quote: (Juffo-Wup @ 13 Aug. 2008, 23:42 )

"Does this make it clearer? In the current V5 rules (which I have open in front of me) the Mob and VP/BP rule for Orks has been clarified from the rules mentioned by zap123 above."

---

"If you want to send separate detachments off from the Kos then you have to pay for the Biker Nobz to keep command of them."

Wow. Thanks for all the quick answers, that's great. I'm sorry for reactivating such an old topic, but these are things that came up while playing after years of absence from Epic, so please bear with me for asking so many questions.

@Juffo-Wup: Yes, that helps a lot. Thanks!

@zap123: Is the "5.1 rule edit" already integrated into the downloadable Ork Army Book on netepic.org?

@Warhead: Sorry if I don't really get it, but - if you would purchase extra Biker Nobz, they would add to the existing ones' Mob, right? That would mean though: the nob bikes (KoS + Nob Bike Support Card Units) have to keep coherency, and therefore are not capable of allowing you to send off seperate detachments. Correct?

So a possible workaround could be to purchase nob warbikes as a support card for a different clan card (which has no nob bikes in it normally), but move them with the scorchers from the KoS?

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Warhead

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:35 pm

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@Warhead: Sorry if I don't really get it, but - if you would purchase extra Biker Nobz, they would add to the existing ones' Mob, right? That would mean though: the nob bikes (KoS + Nob Bike Support Card Units) have to keep coherency, and therefore are not capable of allowing you to send off seperate detachments. Correct?

Ah, crap. Made a mistake (Again), Sorry. Yes your quite right. It would however widen the HQ's zone of control. Not the same though, is it?

So what are the New (v5.1?) rules say regards this?

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zap123

Post subject: Hey, who broke the Orks?

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:21 am

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The NetEpic 5.1 updates to the rules are up on the NetEpic Yahoo Group. I don't think the NetEpic.org site has been updated, though I have provided all the files in the past. The 5.1 updates will be in the Gold books though.

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