Siegfried on SG |
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Tas
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG  Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:52 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,10:20) | Hi!
Its funny that certain information is known but not acted upon quickly, even in war.
The American carriers suffered greatly from those wooden decks, but since they were winning with them never "upgraded" them. Perhaps if they did the kamikaze attacks would have hurt less.
A plane full of bombs hitting an wooden deck must hurt...
Primarch |
OK, several separate issues here, and I will really endeavour not to get too much "into the weeds" here, but things aren't quite as simple as they may seem (which is usually the case!  ).
- Hood: She blew up and sank within two minutes. Yes, she had wooden decks, and less heavily armoured magazines, but this was done intentionally as part of the advanced dreadnought design. Quicker to build, lighter and more manouvrable at sea; they had the firepower of a BB but the agility of a cruiser. It doesn't matter how heavily armoured you are, something can always penetrate it, and better to use speed to not get hit in the first place, yes? ?Well, that was the thinking of the time. ?
Some evidence suggests that Hood had additional secondary armament ammunition stored on the upper decks. It was this that was hit, and ingited which then caused a massive secondary explosion directly down into the primary magazine. Not much can be done about that as the 3 survivors of the 1200+ crew could attest to...
- Wooden deck Carriers: It is very true that much of the bomb and Kamakazi damage was exacerbated by the wooden decks of the US carriers. Again, the carriers were deigned specifically for wooden decks so they could be built quicker, move faster and be repaired more easily. If the USN fleet had armoured carriers, they probably wouldn't have been able to arrive in a timely fashion to make a difference. Only a few hours would have made the difference at Midway. And longer repair times would have meant less carriers and thus less decisive airpower would have been present at other battles.
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:33 am |
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That's basically, what I had read and saw on both the subjects. But the point being, I guess, from my standpoint, is that Titans can be equated to warships or tanks ... depending on your predilections. 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:18 am |
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Hi!
WWII was definitely the great war of attrition and "quantity" was the key to victory for allies, which is quite the contrary to modern day armies of the "west" which certainly go for quality.
The naval ship yards in Brooklyn and Viriginia were making ships at a ridiculous pace. The V-ships (Victory ships) were pumped out at such a prodigious rate the Axis powers could never hope to outproduce the US.
So, as Tas pointed out it was more important to produce machines of war quick than to "upgrade' known deficiencies. Better carriers and battleships DID come out, but most saw action in late 1944-45, when they outcome was pretty much decided and they weren't really necessary.
I think Titans are more like the battleships of old, big strategic weapons were you needed your own battleships to face them and bring them down. I always thought the 40k universe was more in tune with WWI stuff than later eras. Land raiders look like Mark I's, Leman Russ is the French Renault, the Squat mega-cannon the "Paris gun" and heck we even have Zepplins! Don't forget Gyrocopters, which look like some WWI biplanes minus the fans.
That may also explain the GW love for useless frontal assaults to engage in hand-to-hand combat. Very WWI-ish. Too bad they forgot tanks have heavy bolters and such which make those tactics very unlikely.
Primarch.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:23 am |
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Yes, I see Epic as high-tech version of WWII... and there are a lot on anologies there. ?
I say WWII over WWI because there is much more mechanization.
However, Primarch, your comparisons are valid, in my mind...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:37 am |
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Yes, 40k, the older stepbrother no one in the Epic family, likes to talk about or mention ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:32 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,10:20) | | Its funny that certain information is known but not acted upon quickly, even in war. |
It's one thing to know it, and another to rectify it...
What would the strategic consequences have been if the USN had withdrawn all of its' carrier force to fit them with armoured decks?
Catastrophic... 
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
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Tas
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:17 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,13:18) | | That may also explain the GW love for useless frontal assaults to engage in hand-to-hand combat. Very WWI-ish. Too bad they forgot tanks have heavy bolters and such which make those tactics very unlikely. |
Too bad! Haig, Hindenburg and their Great War contempories also forgot that tanks and infantry had heavy machine guns too... And those tactics WERE likely...
P.S.
Has anyone else noticed the screwy time thing going on? ?
Replies are being inserted before mine like they are being filed on local time when they are written, not GMT... Weird! 
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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:00 pm |
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More internet magic !? 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:01 pm |
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Tas,
P.S.
Has anyone else noticed the screwy time thing going on?
Replies are being inserted before mine like they are being filed on local time when they are written, not GMT... Weird! |
I've noticed the same thing.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:03 pm |
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Well, that just shows how much I know about naval combat... 
I was apparently suffering under an americo-centric delusion that all the naval vessels were more heavily armed than armored. Go fig.
Alright. I take back my angry face and admit that it was my misunderstanding. Mea Culpa! (and thanks for the education)
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Neal
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:10 pm |
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Speaking of Titans since I really haven't joined this conversation yet...
In At-1/SM-1, I used my titans like big MBTs as the "tip of the spear."
By the time of SM-2/TL, I used Titans as specialized artillary. They get laboriously ,arched to a good vantage point and bombard the enemy with long range firepower until he leaves the field (x3 Volcano Cannons and a Plasma Destructor will do that!). Gargants were for amusement value in this edition other than the GutBusta (Nothing like a bowling ball to spice up the game!).
In Epic-40k, I used Eldar Titans a lot, but didn't use many Imperial Titans or other types. They weren't economical... 
Now in E-A, I use Gargants a lot of the time since they're one of the only really "hard" Ork units that can take a lot of damage. Their goal is to simply suck up as much fire as possible while the Ork gruntz advance, but too many opponents have caught on to this ploy and are ignoring them now! 
I tend to think of Titans as mobile bunkers or specialized artillary and use them to support conventional arms (armor and infantry).
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:13 pm |
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Generally speaking, Neal, your assumptions were reasonable, but as Tas said, things are usually never as "black & white" as they seem.
Before the "dash" to Baghdad, the rumor was that M1 Tanks were too heavy for the modern US Military, and then the paradigm shifted in a matter of days.
And the US Army & USMC rewrote the book, as decisively as the Germans did with their invasion of France in 1940...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:40 pm |
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Hi!
Very true points all. One true maxim in war is that the way to victory is not only by beating the opponent with the best "breakthrough arms of war," but with he who comes up with the "breakthrough" tactics to go with those new toys.
Let us not forget that WWII Germans made their greatest gains and victories with INFERIOR equipment. The French Char B tank was better armored and had a heavier gun, the Stuka is a ridiculously easy aricraft to shoot down due to very poor armor and the ME-109 had an operational range inferior to equivalent fighters. There's no doubt the Russian T-34 had the tanks at the beginning of Barbarossa overmatched and yet Germany conquered all that territory.
The same is happening today with the US military. The weapons are sleek, efficient and deadly, but it's the evolution of tactics to exploit those new units that's making the US military a deadly adversary.
Titans have undergone quite a few "incarnations" and their use on the field has varied. I still beleive the AT-1 approach is the best since you could use them not only as fire platforms but also to go stomp infantry. Then again, the heart of the matter is personal taste.
Primarch.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Siegfried on SG Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:22 am |
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Yes, many people don't realize, that the French & UK Forces that faced the Germans in May 1940, had more and better AFVs, than the invading "Huns." But the Germans understood mobile combined arms mechanized warfare.
The Allies were fighting the last war, and suffered accordingly. And we have always saw Titans in a similar light.
It's logical, "realistic" and has some precedent in reality, i.e. heavy fire support for the ground troops. Move this large weapons platform into position and blast away! ?
But again, it is a matter of personal preference...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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