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'Fix' for assault marines
Steve54
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:45 pm 
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and another activation is always useful with Marines

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dptdexys
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Why two formations of assault marines? I fill with 1 (cheaper) formation of terminators and go hunting


Using two formations can be a lot better in UK tournaments were the experimental rules are rarely used so termies MWs are usually wasted against infantry BTS targets.
I've even used 3 assault formations in a LC a few times once or twice with a vindicator formation and all with chaplains but only in 6000 point games.
My preference has long been for termies over the Assault/Dev combo but I do use assaults on their own,as previously mentioned.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:29 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 23 2007,06:03)
QUOTE
Heres something. The concensus I encounter is that assault marines are pretty poor for everything bar insertaion by air transport. To widen the possibilities why not reduce the formation cost to 150 points, and up the Thunderhawk cost to 250 points.

If thats too much for the Thunderhawk we could also perhaps implement the idea of 5+ RA 3dc. Bit tougher and better in assault but greater chance of a critical.

I'm highly in favour of several of these.

In order:


- Reduce formation cost to 150 - Seems very sensible when you consider that Rough Riders always defeat Assault Marines...

- Increase Thunderhawk cost - I'm highly in favour of this and have been for some time, Thunderhawks are definitely undercosted.

- 3DC 5+RA Thunderhawk - I'm 101% in favour of this, for a myriad of reasons (Both based on 'fluff', the size of the model, and 40k rules).




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Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:35 pm 
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I heavy disagree. Uppricing Thawk AND reducing their save is not the way to go. 5+RA is comparable to 4+ normal save). Thawks are already 200pts and one of the few weapons a drop army get to work (and really lousy on ground attack). I disbelieve we want to weaken a drop army again. I took the point-rising of single Warhounds, Terminators and Landing Craft but this goes too far.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:36 pm 
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I'd probably only take them to 225 rather than 250... and note that they'd go up to 3DC...




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Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:38 pm 
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5+RA is only 4+ normal save as said. so you loose heavy on armor. Let?s do some calculations.


4+RA DC2 is 8 hits without critical to destroy

5+RA DC3 is 6 hits without critical to destroy(but a greater chance to get one) 5+RA Save is about 56% if I remember right. 4+ is 50%




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:11 pm 
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If you look at the armour values:

Vehicle / Front / Side/ Rear /Epic save

Rhino, Razorback, Whirlwind / 11/ 11/ 10/ 5+
Predator, Vindicator / 13 / 11 / 10/ 4+
LandRaider / 14 / 14 / 14/ 4+RA
Thunderhawk / 12 / 12 / 10/ 4+RA, 3 Strukturepoints

So i think 4+ save is good for the Thunderhawk. But it has special Ceramite protection against melta-weapons and decoy flares which would justify the RA?

How about this: Save 4+(the armour), InvulnerableSave (decoy flares and heat shielding) DC3?

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dptdexys
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Reduce formation cost to 150 - Seems very sensible when you consider that Rough Riders always defeat Assault Marines


the RRs always defeat the Assault marines when playing theoryhammer but when they have met in real games were i've been involved its usually the marines who come out on top.

in theoryhammer its a straight CC v CC ?but in real games the marines usually pick how or if to fight,in my games by the time the 2 formations are near together the marines usually are in buildings so RRs cannot get into BtoB or if they need to do the assault its usually a FF clipping assault with support nearby.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:50 pm 
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I can reveal my assault marines got had by General_Ngs roughriders, I was in cover too the cheeky passing all his difficult terrain tests charging 40cm bloody horses with first strike.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:24 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 23 2007,18:50)
QUOTE
I can reveal my assault marines got had by General_Ngs roughriders, I was in cover too the cheeky passing all his difficult terrain tests charging 40cm bloody horses with first strike.

they can enter cover (woods,ruins etc.),yes but as they are walkers they cannot enter buildings.

sorry meant Mounted Infantry not walkers.
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Chroma
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:53 pm 
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(dptdexys @ Apr. 23 2007,21:24)
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they can enter cover (woods,ruins etc.),yes but as they are walkers they cannot enter buildings.

Actually, it's because they are mounted that they can't enter buildings.

Rough Riders don't have walker, so they don't get to re-roll dangerous terrain tests.

That said, Rough Riders, for their points (and don't forget potential free Commissar!), are probably the best assault troops in the game.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:16 pm 
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Just a historical point:  the rough riders got a last minute boost right before publication for editorial reasons.  Jervis, et. al., felt that they needed to have at least one unit in the core 3 armies that had every ability.  No one had First Strike.  They chose to add it to the Rough Riders.  IIRC, there was no point cost adjustment.

It was a surprise to all the playtesters and caused a bit of a furor, which is what prompted Jervis' (rather sheepish) explanation of the last minute change.

In other words, comparison to the RR is probably not a good basis for determining proper relative ability.

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Chroma
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:58 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Apr. 23 2007,23:16)
QUOTE
Just a historical point: ?the rough riders got a last minute boost right before publication for editorial reasons. ?Jervis, et. al., felt that they needed to have at least one unit in the core 3 armies that had every ability. ?No one had First Strike. ?They chose to add it to the Rough Riders. ?IIRC, there was no point cost adjustment.

Well that explains a *LOT*!  *laugh*

Why didn't they just give first strike to the hunting lance *without* the Extra attack?  I think Riders would be balanced that way... any idea if that kind of change/update is in the Rules/Army review Neal?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: 'Fix' for assault marines
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:47 am 
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Rough riders (and vultures pre skimmer rule change) is I think pretty much the only unit that consistently comes up as overpowered in IG discussions. Course not everyone agrees. I was going to increase it in the siege list, but there on reflection by the inner circle of siege players I know it seemed to be okay. Needs something int he main list however, even if it is just a 25 point boost.

Oh and of course deathstrikes, that consistently come up as annoying.

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