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Tau: Changes and Additions
Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:22 pm 
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Hey all,

Having had something of a NetEpic revival around here, I've been looking long and hard at the Tau.  I've been a fan of the Tau ever since I first saw their concepts appear in White Dwarf and I love their background, their theme and their models.  I'm keen on putting together a Tau army and have been reading up on Tau units, both in NetEpic and E:A.  Surprisingly, the E:A 4.4 list has more variety in units that NetEpic does!!

I've been looking at the mechanics of the Tau army and have a few suggestions for units as well as some minor rule changes that I think would allow the Tau to run a little more smoothly and more in character with their background.

Rule changes:
Special Ability: Markerlights
These are laser-guidance systems that ?light up? a target and make it easier to hit. Infantry units armed with Markerlights may have each stand fire either their normal weapons or Markerlights, non-infantry units may fire both their normal weapon system as well as Markerlights in the same turn and at different targets. Markerlights have a 50 cm range and hit on a 4+. If the target is hit, place a counter beside that detachment to indicate that it has been illuminated. For the remainder of the turn, any other Tau and Vespid (but not Kroot or allied) unit firing at that detachment gains a +1 To-Hit bonus.   In addition, a unit armed with Guided Missiles may fire on the target regardless of whether or not it has line of sight to the target.  Multiple Markerlight counters are not cumulative.

Special Ability: Guided Missiles (to replace Seeker Missiles)
The Tau utilise sophisticated missile systems on many of its vehicles, from the small but effective Seeker missiles to the powerful Tracer missiles.  These missile systems are designated as Guided Missiles.  Guided Missiles may be fired as any other normal weapon, obeying the normal line-of-sight rules or they may be fired at any target that has been marked by a Markerlight without needing line-of-sight to the target (gaining the +1 to hit bonus into the bargain).  Submunition missiles gain no bonus to hit from Markerlights as they are a template weapon.

To add to this, each Tau unit that currently had seeker missiles listed should have Seeker Missiles added as a weapon system (I would suggest: Range 100cm, Attack Dice 1 or 2 (depending on how many missiles the unit likely carries), To Hit 3+, TSM -1).

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:33 pm 
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New Units:
TIGERSHARK STRIKE CRAFT (AX-1-0 VARIANT)
A more recent variant of the Tiger Shark, jointly developed by the Earth and Air Castes in secret, replaces the drone racks and Ion Cannons with two light calibre Railcannons. These massive weapons, usually mounted on support craft, turn the Tiger Shark into a formidable ground attack strike craft, capable of engaging and destroying super heavy tanks and Titans.

Move 20cm Save 4+ CAF+2 Notes: Flyer, Super Heavy
Weapons:
Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0
Light Railcannons 100cm 2 3+ -3 Penetrating +1
Seeker Missiles 100cm 2 3+ -1 Guided Missile

Support Card (1 Tigershark), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 2, Cost 150pts

STINGRAY MISSILE GUNSHIP
After the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Tau?s contact with former Imperial forces led them to consider the development of a non-line-of-sight and beyond-line-of-sight weapon to break up the waves of Orks rampaging through the sector after the Imperial/Tau ceasefire. A single large warhead, similar to the simple shell used by Earthshaker Cannons, was considered, but was determined to be less effective than a modified Seeker Missile, with a large number of Smart Missiles loaded into the payload bay.
The resulting weapon was first fielded on modified Skyray Air Defence Tanks. The first field tests were promising, but revealed shortcomings in the vehicles used for the test. First among these was the sheer size of the new missile, making it extremely dependent on resupply in an extended battle. A new turret was developed to carry more missiles, which also required changes to the basic hull (reducing armor to allow the unit to keep up with Devilfish and Hammerhead  formations). This new version was significantly less dependent on resupply during battle, and the larger turret allowed refinements to the missile itself, increasing the number of Smart Missile submunitions

Move 20cm Save 4+ CAF+2 Skimmer, Markerlight
Weapons
Smart Missiles 50cm 2 4+ 0
Submunition Missiles 100cm 2BP 3+ 0 Airburst Template, Ignores Cover, Guided Missile
Seeker Missiles 100cm 1 3+ -1 Guided Missile

Support Card (3 Stingray Missile Gunships), BP 2, Morale 3, VPs 2, Cost 150pts




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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:39 pm 
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More New Units:

SCORPIONFISH SUPER-HEAVY MISSILE GUNSHIP
After the shock of facing Imperial Super-heavy tanks in the Damocles crusade and later conflicts, the Tau have been putting considerable effort in developing their own Super-heavy gunships. Lacking any other large vehicle as a basis, the Orca Dropship has been heavily armed and armoured, effectively reducing its mobility down to being a surface-bound skimmer. This variant is called the Scorpionfish Missile Gunship and is carrying no less than a full complement of Hunter, Seeker, Tracer and Smart Missiles, as well as the direct-firing Missile Pods. It has no single main weapon, but rather acts as platform for a number of smaller systems, enabling it to engage any type of threat. This kind of flexibility has proven to be a major asset in recent Tau campaigns. It may be a bit slower than the majority of Tau units, but it also has skimmer capabilities, so negotiating difficult terrain normally isn?t an issue. It forms part of the stout firing line at the back of the Tau army, anchoring the defences like a solid rock.
Special Rules:  Like the Manta Missile Destroyer and the Moray Assault Ship, the Scorpionfish hovers along the ground like most skimmers, yet lacks the thrust needed to quickly change altitude.  As a result it is skimmer but many not perform Pop-up Attacks.  Each turn when firing the Munitions Launcher the player may choose one of the missile types listed with the Launcher to fire that round.  Only one missile type can be fire each turn per Scorpionfish.

Move 15cm, Save 3+, CAF +2, Skimmer (No Pop-up), Super Heavy
Weapons:
Missile Pod 75cm 2 4+ -2
Munitions Launcher (All missiles are Guided)
Tracer Missiles 150cm 4 4+ -4 Penetrating +1
Submunition Missiles 100cm 6BP 4+ 0 Airburst Template, Ignores Cover
Seeker Missiles 100cm 6 3+ -2

Support Card (1 Scorpionfish Superheavy Missile Gunship), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 2, Cost 200pts

VESPID STINGWINGS
The Tau Empire includes several alien races subsumed into the Empire to help further the cause of the Greater Good.  Many of these races provide troops to help with the Tau expansion effort.  Most famous and numerous are the Kroot but a more recent addition to Tau fighting forces are the insectoid Vespid Stingwings.  The Stingwings evolved in a harsh climate, and they are well equipped to prosper in their homeworld's lethal atmosphere. Chitinous wings carry them aloft upon the cold, gusting winds, and diamond-hard claws provide the means to tunnel within the rock of sky-borne islands covered in stalactites. The Vespid provide auxiliaries to Tau armies, who value them for their skill at negotiating dangerous ground at speed. They make ideal mobile reserve or flanking troops, though the Tau rely on the communion helm issued to the Strain Leaders to communicate with the Stingwings and coordinate their actions.  The weapons carried by the Stingwings represent a technology unique to Vespid. Mounted at the barrel of each is a highly energetic and unstable crystal harvested from the lowest levels of the largest islands. At such depths, the atmospheric pressures create bizarre crystal formations. The Tau have provided the Stingwings with the technology to mount these weapons upon advanced and highly efficient neutron containment and projection systems, making them amongst the most deadly weapons of their type.

Move 20cm, Save None, CAF +2, Jump Packs, Hard to Hit
Weapons:
Neutron Blasters 35cm 1 4+ -1

Support Card (4 Vespid Stingwing Stands), BP 2, Morale 3, VPs 1, Cost 100pts

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:52 pm 
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Yet another new unit:

MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
The Moray is a relatively new addition to the armies of the Tau, in response to the need for heavy fire support without having to send a full Manta Missile destroyer. The Moray is very similar to the Manta in appearance, but is much smaller and cannot carry any troops, however it still packs a very serious punch. Its main weapon is either the Railcannon, a macro-version of the Railgun mounted on Tau tanks, or a phalanx of Heavy Ion Cannons firing in unison. Unlike the Orca, which only drops in to embark or disembark troops before disengaging again as fast as possible, the Moray hovers slowly above the ground and maintains a constant presence on the field. It is a mixture between highflying heavy skimmer and slow aircraft, much like the larger Manta Missile Destroyer, and can be regarded as the Tau answer to enemy Super-heavy tanks and Scout Titans, in a similar way as the Scorpionfish.
Special Rules:  Like the Manta Missile Destroyer, the Moray Assault Ship hovers along the ground like most skimmers, yet lacks the thrust needed to quickly change altitude.  As a result it is skimmer but many not perform Pop-up Attacks.  The Moray Assault Ship is fitted with only one Primary weapon, so when you purchase the unit for your army you must choose whether it is armed with Railcannons or an Ion Phalanx (the cost is the same for either weapons fit).

Move 20cm, CAF +6, Shields 2 Tau Deflector Shields (3+ Fixed Save each), Repair 4+, Notes Skimmer (no Pop-up), Deep Strike

Weapons
Railcannons 100 cm 2 4+ -3 Penetrating +2
                   100 cm 6BP 4+ 0 Not Artillery
OR Ion Phalanx 75cm 4 5+ -2
Fore Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0
Aft Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0 Rear 180o Arc Only
Tracer Missiles 100cm 2 4+ -3 Guided Missiles, Penetrating +1

The Hit Location table looks similar to the Manta but with only one row of boxes.  The damage tables are exactly the same.

Special Card (1 Moray Assault Ship), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 4, Cost 400pts

Plus there are a few changes that I think should be made to the Manta itself.  Firstly, the hit location template doesn't really represent the model all that well (Railcaanons on one side with the Ion Cannons on the other, which isn't how it looks on the model).  Second, I don't think the Manta should be a flyer.  The description in both E:A and 40K has it as a low-level support vessel.  I think it should be given Deep Strike (to represent an orbital insertion) and then given Skimmer but without the Pop-up Ability.  This would better represent it as a ground-support gunship that drops in from orbit.

Next: Models for the new units.  These are the models I suggest:

Tigershark AX-1-0: Forgeworld model of the same name.
Stingray Gunship: Skyray Gunship (Forgeworld)
Vespid Stingwings: Either Eldar Swooping Hawks or Tyranid Gargoyles
Scorpionfish Gunship: Modified Orca Dropship
Moray Assault Ship: Battlefleet Gothic Tau Protector Cruiser (Forgeworld)

Lastly, if no one else is doing the job (or if the current editor no longer wishes to do it), I'd like to put my hand up for editing and producing the Tau army book.

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zap123
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:15 pm 
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(Juffo-Wup @ Apr. 21 2007,12:22)
QUOTE
Rule changes:
Special Ability: Markerlights
These are laser-guidance systems that ?light up? a target and make it easier to hit. Infantry units armed with Markerlights may have each stand fire either their normal weapons or Markerlights, non-infantry units may fire both their normal weapon system as well as Markerlights in the same turn and at different targets. Markerlights have a 50 cm range and hit on a 4+. If the target is hit, place a counter beside that detachment to indicate that it has been illuminated. For the remainder of the turn, any other Tau and Vespid (but not Kroot or allied) unit firing at that detachment gains a +1 To-Hit bonus. ? In addition, a unit armed with Guided Missiles may fire on the target regardless of whether or not it has line of sight to the target. ?Multiple Markerlight counters are not cumulative.

Special Ability: Guided Missiles (to replace Seeker Missiles)
The Tau utilise sophisticated missile systems on many of its vehicles, from the small but effective Seeker missiles to the powerful Tracer missiles. ?These missile systems are designated as Guided Missiles. ?Guided Missiles may be fired as any other normal weapon, obeying the normal line-of-sight rules or they may be fired at any target that has been marked by a Markerlight without needing line-of-sight to the target (gaining the +1 to hit bonus into the bargain). ?Submunition missiles gain no bonus to hit from Markerlights as they are a template weapon.

To add to this, each Tau unit that currently had seeker missiles listed should have Seeker Missiles added as a weapon system (I would suggest: Range 100cm, Attack Dice 1 or 2 (depending on how many missiles the unit likely carries), To Hit 3+, TSM -1).

The E:A guys seem to make up new units on the fly...no surprise they have more variety  :D

The only unit with Seeker Missiles in the actual Weapons column in the list atm is the Skyray.  As your new stats are a downgrade for the Skyray I vote yes, good move, the thing is way overpowered as it is now.

If you mean adding them to the 3 units that have Seeker Missiles in the notes column (the 3 fliers) then I think a) the Tau probably dont need 3 addition units with 100cm range, b) If you did their points cost would need to skyrocket...like triple, and c) the Tau really dont need flying units with 100cm range with a 2+ to hit.

Flyers with 100cm range are going to be untouchable.  Even a Squat Thunderfire can only match their effective range and most Armies flak wont even go close.

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zap123
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:24 pm 
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(Juffo-Wup @ Apr. 21 2007,12:33)
QUOTE
New Units:
TIGERSHARK STRIKE CRAFT (AX-1-0 VARIANT)
A more recent variant of the Tiger Shark, jointly developed by the Earth and Air Castes in secret, replaces the drone racks and Ion Cannons with two light calibre Railcannons. These massive weapons, usually mounted on support craft, turn the Tiger Shark into a formidable ground attack strike craft, capable of engaging and destroying super heavy tanks and Titans.

Move 20cm Save 4+ CAF+2 Notes: Flyer, Super Heavy
Weapons:
Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0
Light Railcannons 100cm 2 3+ -3 Penetrating +1
Seeker Missiles 100cm 2 3+ -1 Guided Missile

Support Card (1 Tigershark), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 2, Cost 150pts

STINGRAY MISSILE GUNSHIP
After the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Tau?s contact with former Imperial forces led them to consider the development of a non-line-of-sight and beyond-line-of-sight weapon to break up the waves of Orks rampaging through the sector after the Imperial/Tau ceasefire. A single large warhead, similar to the simple shell used by Earthshaker Cannons, was considered, but was determined to be less effective than a modified Seeker Missile, with a large number of Smart Missiles loaded into the payload bay.
The resulting weapon was first fielded on modified Skyray Air Defence Tanks. The first field tests were promising, but revealed shortcomings in the vehicles used for the test. First among these was the sheer size of the new missile, making it extremely dependent on resupply in an extended battle. A new turret was developed to carry more missiles, which also required changes to the basic hull (reducing armor to allow the unit to keep up with Devilfish and Hammerhead ?formations). This new version was significantly less dependent on resupply during battle, and the larger turret allowed refinements to the missile itself, increasing the number of Smart Missile submunitions

Move 20cm Save 4+ CAF+2 Skimmer, Markerlight
Weapons
Smart Missiles 50cm 2 4+ 0
Submunition Missiles 100cm 2BP 3+ 0 Airburst Template, Ignores Cover, Guided Missile
Seeker Missiles 100cm 1 3+ -1 Guided Missile

Support Card (3 Stingray Missile Gunships), BP 2, Morale 3, VPs 2, Cost 150pts

TIGERSHARK STRIKE CRAFT (AX-1-0 VARIANT)

I think this one is game-breaking for the reasons above.  Unfortunately Tau can already generate a flyer with 100cm ranged weapons by a max'd Vector suit, so I guess the precedent is set.  However, I really think you've missed the points cost by a LOT.  That's nearly got the firepower of a detachment of Tempests and it will be virtually invulnerable.  I'd suggest 450 points or more for that monster.

STINGRAY MISSILE GUNSHIP

I kinda like the fact that the Tau have no serious artillery.  Don't know if there is fluff precedent for this one but I'd vote no.  If you were going to do it drop the Seeker missiles but leave the points cost as is.

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zap123
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:38 pm 
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(Juffo-Wup @ Apr. 21 2007,12:39)
QUOTE
More New Units:

SCORPIONFISH SUPER-HEAVY MISSILE GUNSHIP

Special Rules: ?Like the Manta Missile Destroyer and the Moray Assault Ship, the Scorpionfish hovers along the ground like most skimmers, yet lacks the thrust needed to quickly change altitude. ?As a result it is skimmer but many not perform Pop-up Attacks. ?Each turn when firing the Munitions Launcher the player may choose one of the missile types listed with the Launcher to fire that round. ?Only one missile type can be fire each turn per Scorpionfish.

Move 15cm, Save 3+, CAF +2, Skimmer (No Pop-up), Super Heavy
Weapons:
Missile Pod 75cm 2 4+ -2
Munitions Launcher (All missiles are Guided)
Tracer Missiles 150cm 4 4+ -4 Penetrating +1
Submunition Missiles 100cm 6BP 4+ 0 Airburst Template, Ignores Cover
Seeker Missiles 100cm 6 3+ -2

Support Card (1 Scorpionfish Superheavy Missile Gunship), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 2, Cost 200pts

VESPID STINGWINGS


Move 20cm, Save None, CAF +2, Jump Packs, Hard to Hit
Weapons:
Neutron Blasters 35cm 1 4+ -1

Support Card (4 Vespid Stingwing Stands), BP 2, Morale 3, VPs 1, Cost 100pts

SCORPIONFISH SUPER-HEAVY MISSILE GUNSHIP

Ok, I'm kinda down with the concept here, but is that really 6 shots at 100cms, hitting on 3+

or

4 shots at 150cms hitting on 4+, with a -4 TSM and penetrating +1???

This is massively more firepower than any comparably costed superheavy.  Drop the firepower or raise the cost a lot.  Not at all comfortable with 150cm range on a direct fire weapon.  I'd suggest remove the Tracer option, and drop the Seeker missiles to 2 dice.  200 would still be cheapish for that, but not unreasonable.

Vespids look ok.

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zap123
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:51 pm 
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(Juffo-Wup @ Apr. 21 2007,12:52)
QUOTE
Yet another new unit:

MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
Special Rules: ?Like the Manta Missile Destroyer, the Moray Assault Ship hovers along the ground like most skimmers, yet lacks the thrust needed to quickly change altitude. ?As a result it is skimmer but many not perform Pop-up Attacks. ?The Moray Assault Ship is fitted with only one Primary weapon, so when you purchase the unit for your army you must choose whether it is armed with Railcannons or an Ion Phalanx (the cost is the same for either weapons fit).

Move 20cm, CAF +6, Shields 2 Tau Deflector Shields (3+ Fixed Save each), Repair 4+, Notes Skimmer (no Pop-up), Deep Strike

Weapons
Railcannons 100 cm 2 4+ -3 Penetrating +2
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?100 cm 6BP 4+ 0 Not Artillery
OR Ion Phalanx 75cm 4 5+ -2
Fore Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0
Aft Burst Cannons 35cm 4 5+ 0 Rear 180o Arc Only
Tracer Missiles 100cm 2 4+ -3 Guided Missiles, Penetrating +1

The Hit Location table looks similar to the Manta but with only one row of boxes. ?The damage tables are exactly the same.

Special Card (1 Moray Assault Ship), BP Model, Morale -, VPs 4, Cost 400pts

The Moray looks pretty balanced I think.  Like to see the template....not good enough to visualise it myself.

On the existing Tau list, I think there are some issues with it currently.  

- Need to remove the "Defensive Fire" special rule as agreed on the mailing list.
- Skyray - needs to be detuned...4+ to hit maybe.  As they are, they should probably be 125 points each.
- Broadsides look pretty special.

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primarch
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:00 pm 
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Hi!

There are two major points about the Tau list that I need to clarify:

1. It is the LEAST playtested list. Compared to all other, even the homegrown slann list, this list is quite "new".

Therefore, any and all changes you guys suggest are fine by me, since there is no hard data for or against most of what is there.

I dont follow the 40k stuff, so those who do are far better arbiters of what this army should "feel" like.

Change and tweak to your hearts content.

2. The army list was made taking into consideration only the available FW models. Thus the relative lack of variety.

Since proxying and other substitutions are more a necessity in todays epic reality, them by all means increase the amount of units!!

In simpler terms you get LOTS of leeway here.... :;):

Primarch

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:17 am 
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Howdy!
Thanks for the feedback, its all very much appreciated.  The first point I'd like to make is that I always try to under-point a unit's cost when creating it as its much easier to convice people to increase the cost of a unit than to decrease it.  This time I will admit I went a little too low.  Whoops.

The only unit with Seeker Missiles in the actual Weapons column in the list atm is the Skyray.  As your new stats are a downgrade for the Skyray I vote yes, good move, the thing is way overpowered as it is now.
If you mean adding them to the 3 units that have Seeker Missiles in the notes column (the 3 fliers) then I think a) the Tau probably dont need 3 addition units with 100cm range, b) If you did their points cost would need to skyrocket...like triple, and c) the Tau really dont need flying units with 100cm range with a 2+ to hit.
Flyers with 100cm range are going to be untouchable.  Even a Squat Thunderfire can only match their effective range and most Armies flak wont even go close.

At the moment, Seeker Missiles have unlimited range, 2+ to hit and -2 TSM.  This would be a bit of a downgrade, limiting their range.  Still, we could limit the range of flyer-mounted Seekers to 75cm.

TIGERSHARK STRIKE CRAFT (AX-1-0 VARIANT)
I think this one is game-breaking for the reasons above.  Unfortunately Tau can already generate a flyer with 100cm ranged weapons by a max'd Vector suit, so I guess the precedent is set.  However, I really think you've missed the points cost by a LOT.  That's nearly got the firepower of a detachment of Tempests and it will be virtually invulnerable.  I'd suggest 450 points or more for that monster.

STINGRAY MISSILE GUNSHIP
I kinda like the fact that the Tau have no serious artillery.  Don't know if there is fluff precedent for this one but I'd vote no.  If you were going to do it drop the Seeker missiles but leave the points cost as is.
Well, for now I'd suggest 400pts for the Tigershark AX-1-0 for playtesting (I intend to give the Tau a good workout).

One thing I neglected to mention for the Stingray and Scorpionfish Submunition Missiles is that the Template MUST be centered over its target unlike other artillery, limiting the number of targets it can hit.  Plus on further consideration I think the cost should be closer to 250pts for the unit.  Remember that to fire indirectly (ie without LOS) the target must have a Markerlight token on it.  Without the Markerlight token the Stingray is a direct fire weapon only.

SCORPIONFISH SUPER-HEAVY MISSILE GUNSHIP

Ok, I'm kinda down with the concept here, but is that really 6 shots at 100cms, hitting on 3+
or
4 shots at 150cms hitting on 4+, with a -4 TSM and penetrating +1???

This is massively more firepower than any comparably costed superheavy.  Drop the firepower or raise the cost a lot.  Not at all comfortable with 150cm range on a direct fire weapon.  I'd suggest remove the Tracer option, and drop the Seeker missiles to 2 dice.  200 would still be cheapish for that, but not unreasonable.

Vespids look ok.
O.K.  With the Scorpionfish you can fire ONE missile type that is listed under the Munitions Launcher per turn.  Choose either Tracer Missiles, Submunition Missiles or Seeker Missiles.  So you can fire the Missile Pods and Tracer Missiles OR Missile Pods and Submunition Missiles OR Missile Pods and Seeker Missile each turn.  This gives you a unit that can adjust its firepower to suit the situation, a very Tau thing to do.  Yes, on second thoughts, its way too cheap.  400pts minimum on this thing.

The Moray looks pretty balanced I think.  Like to see the template....not good enough to visualise it myself.

On the existing Tau list, I think there are some issues with it currently.  

- Need to remove the "Defensive Fire" special rule as agreed on the mailing list.
- Skyray - needs to be detuned...4+ to hit maybe.  As they are, they should probably be 125 points each.
- Broadsides look pretty special.
The Moray needs a little tweaking with its rules, as does the Manta.  I've thought long and hard about both of them and there currently exists no rules in NetEpic to adequately cover their type of movement.  The Manta is currently listed as a Flyer, making it nearly impossible to kill due to Flyers being hard to shoot at.  Downgrade it to a Floater and its still too hard to shoot at.  Downgrade it to a Skimmer (as I suggested earlier) and it doesn't behave the way its described.  I suggest a new class for the Manta and Moray:
Special Ability: Support Craft
1) Altitude: As per the Floater rules
2) Objectives: Cannot contest or claim objectives unless grounded.
3) Pinning: As per Floaters.
4) Shoot the Thin Part: As per Floaters.
5) Orbital Insertion: As per Deep Strike.

Also, close examination of the Manta template tells me it is very wrong.  All current templates are based on the relative size of the model.  The Manta's template is only slightly bigger than a Warhound.  Looking at the model, the Manta is nearly three times the size of a Warhound!  The Template should be much bigger (and it will modify the Moray to suit).

I'd like to keep Defensive Fire as something to show how much the Tau avoid CC but down grade it to something like the Squat Thunderers.  They may re-roll any to hit roll of "1" (once only) when firing at chargers.  This gives them a better chance of hitting their target, but not much.

Is it possible to get a hold of the Tau doc file to modify?  I'd be more than happy to make any necessary changes and additions.

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 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:55 am 
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(Juffo-Wup @ Apr. 22 2007,02:17)
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Howdy!
Thanks for the feedback, its all very much appreciated. ?The first point I'd like to make is that I always try to under-point a unit's cost when creating it as its much easier to convice people to increase the cost of a unit than to decrease it. ?This time I will admit I went a little too low. ?Whoops.

The only unit with Seeker Missiles in the actual Weapons column in the list atm is the Skyray. ?As your new stats are a downgrade for the Skyray I vote yes, good move, the thing is way overpowered as it is now.
If you mean adding them to the 3 units that have Seeker Missiles in the notes column (the 3 fliers) then I think a) the Tau probably dont need 3 addition units with 100cm range, b) If you did their points cost would need to skyrocket...like triple, and c) the Tau really dont need flying units with 100cm range with a 2+ to hit.
Flyers with 100cm range are going to be untouchable. ?Even a Squat Thunderfire can only match their effective range and most Armies flak wont even go close.

At the moment, Seeker Missiles have unlimited range, 2+ to hit and -2 TSM. ?This would be a bit of a downgrade, limiting their range. ?Still, we could limit the range of flyer-mounted Seekers to 75cm.

TIGERSHARK STRIKE CRAFT (AX-1-0 VARIANT)
I think this one is game-breaking for the reasons above. ?Unfortunately Tau can already generate a flyer with 100cm ranged weapons by a max'd Vector suit, so I guess the precedent is set. ?However, I really think you've missed the points cost by a LOT. ?That's nearly got the firepower of a detachment of Tempests and it will be virtually invulnerable. ?I'd suggest 450 points or more for that monster.

STINGRAY MISSILE GUNSHIP
I kinda like the fact that the Tau have no serious artillery. ?Don't know if there is fluff precedent for this one but I'd vote no. ?If you were going to do it drop the Seeker missiles but leave the points cost as is.

Well, for now I'd suggest 400pts for the Tigershark AX-1-0 for playtesting (I intend to give the Tau a good workout).

One thing I neglected to mention for the Stingray and Scorpionfish Submunition Missiles is that the Template MUST be centered over its target unlike other artillery, limiting the number of targets it can hit. ?Plus on further consideration I think the cost should be closer to 250pts for the unit. ?Remember that to fire indirectly (ie without LOS) the target must have a Markerlight token on it. ?Without the Markerlight token the Stingray is a direct fire weapon only.

SCORPIONFISH SUPER-HEAVY MISSILE GUNSHIP

Ok, I'm kinda down with the concept here, but is that really 6 shots at 100cms, hitting on 3+
or
4 shots at 150cms hitting on 4+, with a -4 TSM and penetrating +1???

This is massively more firepower than any comparably costed superheavy. ?Drop the firepower or raise the cost a lot. ?Not at all comfortable with 150cm range on a direct fire weapon. ?I'd suggest remove the Tracer option, and drop the Seeker missiles to 2 dice. ?200 would still be cheapish for that, but not unreasonable.

Vespids look ok.
O.K. ?With the Scorpionfish you can fire ONE missile type that is listed under the Munitions Launcher per turn. ?Choose either Tracer Missiles, Submunition Missiles or Seeker Missiles. ?So you can fire the Missile Pods and Tracer Missiles OR Missile Pods and Submunition Missiles OR Missile Pods and Seeker Missile each turn. ?This gives you a unit that can adjust its firepower to suit the situation, a very Tau thing to do. ?Yes, on second thoughts, its way too cheap. ?400pts minimum on this thing.

The Moray looks pretty balanced I think. ?Like to see the template....not good enough to visualise it myself.

On the existing Tau list, I think there are some issues with it currently. ?

- Need to remove the "Defensive Fire" special rule as agreed on the mailing list.
- Skyray - needs to be detuned...4+ to hit maybe. ?As they are, they should probably be 125 points each.
- Broadsides look pretty special.
The Moray needs a little tweaking with its rules, as does the Manta. ?I've thought long and hard about both of them and there currently exists no rules in NetEpic to adequately cover their type of movement. ?The Manta is currently listed as a Flyer, making it nearly impossible to kill due to Flyers being hard to shoot at. ?Downgrade it to a Floater and its still too hard to shoot at. ?Downgrade it to a Skimmer (as I suggested earlier) and it doesn't behave the way its described. ?I suggest a new class for the Manta and Moray:
Special Ability: Support Craft
1) Altitude: As per the Floater rules
2) Objectives: Cannot contest or claim objectives unless grounded.
3) Pinning: As per Floaters.
4) Shoot the Thin Part: As per Floaters.
5) Orbital Insertion: As per Deep Strike.

Also, close examination of the Manta template tells me it is very wrong. ?All current templates are based on the relative size of the model. ?The Manta's template is only slightly bigger than a Warhound. ?Looking at the model, the Manta is nearly three times the size of a Warhound! ?The Template should be much bigger (and it will modify the Moray to suit).

I'd like to keep Defensive Fire as something to show how much the Tau avoid CC but down grade it to something like the Squat Thunderers. ?They may re-roll any to hit roll of "1" (once only) when firing at chargers. ?This gives them a better chance of hitting their target, but not much.

Is it possible to get a hold of the Tau doc file to modify? ?I'd be more than happy to make any necessary changes and additions.
Tau should be good at shooting, but we do need to keep them balanced too. ?I have been thinking about synergy within the Tau list. ?I think it will be degenerative to give them a bunch of uber flyers whose only slight vulnerability is vs. enemy flyers, while at the same time the Tau have the most effective AA unit in the game. ?Similarly we should be careful not to give them units/abilities that take away their current limitations (low CAF, no effective Artillery, no Titans), particularly as the first one has already been partly obviated by the inclusion of the Kroot..

Defensive Fire: ?It was agreed over on the mailing list to drop Defensive Fire as it is already reflected in the Tau "to hit" value.

Markerlights and "Guided Missiles": ?I forgot to add Seeker Missiles to the "things currently broken" list :) ?Actually, I think the newer version is a significant upgrade as it adds a direct-fire weapon system to the carrier. ?The old Seeker Missiles were really the Tau equivalent to off board artillery, and more of an upgrade to the Markerlight unit...you just had to have a carrying vehicle. ?They were broken because of the unlimited range, and the fact that you could buy 1 Tigershark for 150 points and this would let every Pathfinder/Tetra/Skyray "launch" each turn. ?

I think Markerlights should not change (shoot or use Markerlights, not both) and Seeker Missiles stay as is, but you only get 1 shot per turn per launch vehicle. ?Launch is performed as part of the Carrying Vehicles' activation. ?If we were to adopt the proposed system you would need to revise the cost of the flyers upward significantly, and reduce the range of "Seeker missiles".

Tigershark AX-1-0: ?I assume movement is a typo. ?(also, what's up with the "special" for Tau Flyers movement?) ?As written this is a flying superheavy with 4 shots at an effective 125cm range. ?It has more firepower than 3 flying, railcannon equiped Vectors (450 points) and given it's synergy with the Uber Skyray it is virtually invulnerable. ?As written it should start at 500 at least. ?If the Seekers revert to current rules then 400 would be appropriate.

Stingray Missile Gunship: ?I think giving Tau Uber artillery goes against their flavour, and is taking away another of thier already too few weaknesses. ?At most they should get a Whirlwind/Mole Mortar equivalent (ie. junk, but then better than nothing). ?Still vote no.

Scorpionfish:  Yup, I understood it was either/or.  Still don't think 150cm range weapons are appropriate or necessary.....and certainly not when they are that accurate and deadly.  150cms 5+ -1 might get a guernsey if costed appropriately, but not 4+ -4 Pen +1.  Drop the Tracer option and it still has more firepower than a detachment of Tempests..... 400 points and it's still good, but reasonable.




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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:14 am 
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Tau should be good at shooting, but we do need to keep them balanced too. ?I have been thinking about synergy within the Tau list. ?I think it will be degenerative to give them a bunch of uber flyers whose only slight vulnerability is vs. enemy flyers, while at the same time the Tau have the most effective AA unit in the game. ?Similarly we should be careful not to give them units/abilities that take away their current limitations (low CAF, no effective Artillery, no Titans), particularly as the first one has already been partly obviated by the inclusion of the Kroot..

The Skyray should have its points cost raised, I agree (hence the playtesting I plan on doing ASAP). ?To limit the abilities of their flyers (Both Tigersharks, the Orca and the Barracuda), we should limit their weapons to 75cm at most then.

Defensive Fire: ?It was agreed over on the mailing list to drop Defensive Fire as it is already reflected in the Tau "to hit" value.
Meh. ?I still like the idea of keeping it with only re-rolling "1's" but if the general consensus is no defensive Fire then we should drop it. ?My desire to keep it is strictly a flavour issue for the army.

Markerlights and "Guided Missiles": ?I forgot to add Seeker Missiles to the "things currently broken" list :) ?Actually, I think the newer version is a significant upgrade as it adds a direct-fire weapon system to the carrier. ?The old Seeker Missiles were really the Tau equivalent to off board artillery, and more of an upgrade to the Markerlight unit...you just had to have a carrying vehicle. ?They were broken because of the unlimited range, and the fact that you could buy 1 Tigershark for 150 points and this would let every Pathfinder/Tetra/Skyray "launch" each turn.
The current rules for Seekers is very limiting. ?Plus it makes the Scorpionfish very hard to design due to the fact that its main weapon uses guided missiles and one of the weapon options is Seeker Missiles. ?We have a couple of options.

1- Use my propsed rules. ?They are simple and limit the number of Seekers fired each turn. ?Yes, they add a new direct-fire weapon to their vehicle, we just up the points cost (not hard to do).

2- Stick with the old rules. ?Not a great option as you can fire as many Seekers from one vehicle as you have Markerlight locks.

3- Place a limit on the number of Seekers each unit can fire. ?List each vehicle with seekers as Seeker Missiles (X). ?This is the number of shots they can each take. ?This requires book-keeping as to which vehicle has fired its seekers each turn and which hasn't.

Naturally my preference is for option 1 as it is easier (and I proposed it!). ?Sure the cost of some units will go up, so be it. ?I've always seen the Tau as a high-cost, low model-count army. ?You want the good shooting stuff, then you pay for it!

I think Markerlights should not change (shoot or use Markerlights, not both) and Seeker Missiles stay as is, but you only get 1 shot per turn per launch vehicle. ?Launch is performed as part of the Carrying Vehicles' activation. ?If we were to adopt the proposed system you would need to revise the cost of the flyers upward significantly, and reduce the range of "Seeker missiles".
Now this is where I really disagree. ?Markerlights as they are now are really limited. ?For Infantry, you should only fire either their normal gun or their Markerlight, just as it is now. ?This only affects Pathfinders and is fine (as a side note, I'd like to see Stealth Suits given Markerlights and bump their cost up by 100pts). ?Vehicles (and Tetras) are much more sophisticated units and firing a Markerlight should not stop them from firing their normal weaponry. ?Currently, only two units fall under this category: Skyrays and Tetras. ?The Tetra's gun is pretty ordinary anyway and you'll likely be firing the Markerlight anyway. ?The Skyray has a 100cm range weapon, why on earth would you use its Markerlight at 50cm? ?BTW, I would reduce the stats on the Skyray Seekers to 100cm, 3+, -1 TSM under my proposed Guided Missile rules.

Tigershark AX-1-0: ?I assume movement is a typo. ?(also, what's up with the "special" for Tau Flyers movement?) ?As written this is a flying superheavy with 4 shots at an effective 125cm range. ?It has more firepower than 3 flying, railcannon equiped Vectors (450 points) and given it's synergy with the Uber Skyray it is virtually invulnerable. ?As written it should start at 500 at least. ?If the Seekers revert to current rules then 400 would be appropriate.
Sorry. ?Movement was a typo. ?Should be Special. ?The easiest fix is to drop the Light Railcannons to 75cm range (happy to do it, they are light after all) and the Seeker Missiles to Aircraft Seeker Missiles at 75cm range also. ?I thing that all the Tau Aircraft should have Aircraft Seeker Missiles: Range 75cm, 3+ To hit, 1-2 attack dice, -1TSM. ?This limits their range.

Stingray Missile Gunship: ?I think giving Tau Uber artillery goes against their flavour, and is taking away another of thier already too few weaknesses. ?At most they should get a Whirlwind/Mole Mortar equivalent (ie. junk, but then better than nothing). ?Still vote no.
Again, I strongly disagree here. ?The Tau are the one race that change and adapt. ?Developing an artillery unit is perfectly within their character after seeing how effective it is at disrupting enemy formations. ?I'm pretty sure I mentioned it earlier but the Submuniton Missile (Stingray and Scorpionfish) must be centred over a target. ?Normal artillery is placed to cover as many units as possible, this one must be centred over a target (hence the reason I gave it the 12cm template). ?This will severely limit how many targets the shot can hit (against properly spaced infantry, it should only kill 1 per turn, if you bunch up more, tough). ?Also, to fire indirectly, the template must be centred over a target that has a Markerlight token on it. ?This artillery is very limited in its effectiveness.

Scorpionfish: ?Yup, I understood it was either/or. ?Still don't think 150cm range weapons are appropriate or necessary.....and certainly not when they are that accurate and deadly. ?150cms 5+ -1 might get a guernsey if costed appropriately, but not 4+ -4 Pen +1. ?Drop the Tracer option and it still has more firepower than a detachment of Tempests..... 400 points and it's still good, but reasonable.
150cm Tracers? ?Woops. ?Sorry, that should have been 100cm Tracers. ?My bad. ?Plus each turn it has less firepower than a detachment of Tempests (there are three Tempests in each detachment). ?Take into account it is ONE target. ?Kill it and all that lovely firepower goes away. ?Sure its Superheavy but in my experience that doesn't help much. ?Look at the Colossus. ?It weighs in at 500pts and can lob it entire arsenal in a single turn, easily out classing the Scorpionfish. ?Plus it has shields and a Praetorian template, making it tough to kill. ?450pts for the Scorpionfish is a pretty appropriate cost, but does require playtesting.

Remember that everything I have proposed requires a lot of playtesting, which I plan on giving it against as many armies as possible along with the rest of the Tau list.




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zap123
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:10 pm 
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150cm Tracers? ?Woops. ?Sorry, that should have been 100cm Tracers. ?My bad. ?Plus each turn it has less firepower than a detachment of Tempests (there are three Tempests in each detachment). ?


Ok, 100cm Tracers makes them only Uber, not extreme. ?:)

A detachment of Tempests has a total of 6 shots at 100cms hitting on a 4+ (statistically 3 hits). ?Plus 6 shots at 25cms hitting on 5's. ?

The Scorpionfish as listed using the Seeker Missile option gets 6 shots at 100cms hitting on a 3+ (statistically 4 hits) or 2+ if the target is marked (5 hits!). ?Plus 2 shots at 75cms hitting on a 4+. ?I'd call that more firepower than a Detachment of Tempests. ?:(

We all know the Colossus is cheap :)

I'll give you the Markerlight argument, it would be fairer for Vehicles to use multiple weapons systems.

Don't agree with the Arty vehicle. ?Mind less the direct fire barrage missiles on expensive units, particularly when they have to sacrifice better shots to use the barrage (aka Scorpionfish), but don't want to see a dedicated (and very versatile) arty unit for Tau. ?Balance/flavour reasons mostly. ?If they were to get one it would need serious limitations....take away the direct fire weapons and make it ROF .5 and leave the points at 200.

The current rules for Seekers is very limiting.  Plus it makes the Scorpionfish very hard to design due to the fact that its main weapon uses guided missiles and one of the weapon options is Seeker Missiles.  We have a couple of options.

1- Use my propsed rules.  They are simple and limit the number of Seekers fired each turn.  Yes, they add a new direct-fire weapon to their vehicle, we just up the points cost (not hard to do).

2- Stick with the old rules.  Not a great option as you can fire as many Seekers from one vehicle as you have Markerlight locks.

3- Place a limit on the number of Seekers each unit can fire.  List each vehicle with seekers as Seeker Missiles (X).  This is the number of shots they can each take.  This requires book-keeping as to which vehicle has fired its seekers each turn and which hasn't.

Naturally my preference is for option 1 as it is easier (and I proposed it!).  Sure the cost of some units will go up, so be it.  I've always seen the Tau as a high-cost, low model-count army.  You want the good shooting stuff, then you pay for it!

How about option 1 but make all Seeker missiles 75cms?  Three of the 4 existing units with them are flyers anyway.  Working on your proposed rules, but with 75cm 4+ -1 (+1 to hit if marked), how many shots each and what would you raise the cost of the 3 flyers and the Skyrays to?




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primarch
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:34 am 
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Hi!

Please note that my lack of commentary is not lack of interest, its more that I'm following what you are discussing and quite frankly you both seem to know more about the Tau than I'll ever know.

I defer to your to any and all decisions on the Tau. Settle it amongst you two. I figure if you two agree then its all good. :D

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Tau: Changes and Additions
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:02 am 
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Ok, 100cm Tracers makes them only Uber, not extreme. ?:)

A detachment of Tempests has a total of 6 shots at 100cms hitting on a 4+ (statistically 3 hits). ?Plus 6 shots at 25cms hitting on 5's. ?

The Scorpionfish as listed using the Seeker Missile option gets 6 shots at 100cms hitting on a 3+ (statistically 4 hits) or 2+ if the target is marked (5 hits!). ?Plus 2 shots at 75cms hitting on a 4+. ?I'd call that more firepower than a Detachment of Tempests. ?:(

Using your example of the Seeker Missiles, you're forgetting that the Seekers only have a -1TSM the way I have written them. ?Sure, the Scorpionfish will hit more often but will not come close to damaging the units the Tempests can! ?If you're going to use the Seekers, then you'll likely be firing at light targets or Titan shields. ?This means that the Scorpionfish isn't attacking more expensive units (vs Titans you're basically just dropping the shields) making it less than cost effective.
You want to kill the big stuff? ?Use the Tracers. ?Against a detachment of Land Raiders (for example) the Tempest Detachment will surely wipe it out in a single turn of firing on average. ?Using the Seeker Missiles with or without Makerlight counters on some or all of the Land Raiders, odds are that at least two of them will survive thanks to their high armour save. ?Firing at a squad of light vehicles, say, Rhinos, yes the Scorpionfish will likely do more damage but this means you are not firing at bigger, jucier targets. ?If the Tempests are firing at the Rhinos, whatever the hell for? ?Either they have no better targets or its the tactically wise thing to do for VPs.

Don't agree with the Arty vehicle. ?Mind less the direct fire barrage missiles on expensive units, particularly when they have to sacrifice better shots to use the barrage (aka Scorpionfish), but don't want to see a dedicated (and very versatile) arty unit for Tau. ?Balance/flavour reasons mostly. ?If they were to get one it would need serious limitations....take away the direct fire weapons and make it ROF .5 and leave the points at 200.
Looks like this the area we have to agree to disagree. ?From a fluff point of view, I think the Tau would develop an arty vehicle. ?Its a natural progression for them as they are a highly adaptable race. ?I can understand that from a balance perspective, it may not be a good idea. ?This is why we would cost the unit quite high. ?I plan on playtesting these units and the entire Tau list ASAP and will provide not only my feedback, but the feedback of my opponents (who are also on these forums and the Yahoo Group).

How about option 1 but make all Seeker missiles 75cms? ?Three of the 4 existing units with them are flyers anyway. ?Working on your proposed rules, but with 75cm 4+ -1 (+1 to hit if marked), how many shots each and what would you raise the cost of the 3 flyers and the Skyrays to?
All Guided Missiles should have a 4+ to hit before the Markerlight bonus. ?Agreed. ?Aircraft-mounted Seekers should drop to 75cm. ?Agreed. ?Ground-based Seekers should remain at 100cm IMO. ?They have unlimited range in 40K. ?100cm is pretty representative of that in Epic. ?The Tau are the masters of firepower. ?They should have that with good, long-range weapons. ?If this means that the cost of their units goes up, then that's the way it is.

I'm going to make some changes to the list as well as the units I have proposed based on these discussions. ?This list is what I will play with and make many notes and changes as I go as well as report on the findings of myself and my friends. ?Between us we have a pretty good spread of the armies to try the Tau against. ?I'm keen on seeing how the Tau handle CC-focused armies.

This discussion has been very good and has given me some good ideas to take into the playtesting. ?Thanks!




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