(loofnick @ Apr. 16 2007,13:35)

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Best way I ever found to kill any unit, was to have your careless, clumsy Dad wander through the room, treading on units (usually the unique or well painted ones- took me years to repair that Warhound ). ?(Un)fortunately this option isn't generally available in later life. ?

Never had to deal with Tyranids, they were produced after we stopped playing Space Marine- I don't know the rules well. ?Saving throws look awful though- ?couple of Warhounds with Vulcan Mega-Bolters and a bit of something else? ?Though that's suicide for Warhounds on an open table. ?Maybe Bio-Ts are just underpriced?

Maybe another discussion for the errata, when we get around to Tyranids.

(primarch @ Apr. 14 2007,15:40)

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Hi!

So as not to use somewhat loaded terms as "tournament" or "scenario" (I guess only old epic hands can find such terms loaded.... ), I'd leave it as two alternatives:

1. No allies
2. Allies with two forms current and vanvlak table or a meld of both).

This would just need a simple addition and no major changes.

Is everyone on board/okay with this solution?

Primarch

(Dwarf Supreme @ Apr. 16 2007,17:52)

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(darkangel @ Apr. 16 2007,01:05)

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hi yesterday we played the first time after a long 14 years break...it was great...tyranids+marines+squats against chaos+orks+guards, we have not finished...but it worked very well...

it is more fun and tacitcal with activating the units side by side and you do not know the orders from the other troops...snap fire, overrun and the transport rule....it was much fun...but there was one situation with "bail of" we did not know what to do...I drove with rhinos to attack some orks in close combat, some ork vehicles (I do not know the name of the ugly stuff ) were of first fire and snap to me at half way. 2 rhinos destroyed but on grey hunter could bail of...but what now? the rhinios drove in close combat, because this was the order an the single grey hunter stand? lost on the half way, what do do, because then he was out of formation...how to handle this kind of situation?...hey and another thing...the other side were very confused about attacking te tyranid titan...wow...8 wounds, first a save and then a fixed one with 5+ and 6+ on the importand tails and 4+ to the legs...hard to beat...I would say you need vortex and/or warp missles if you know you are fighting against tiranids...what do you think?

(darkangel @ Apr. 16 2007,14:24)

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[quote="Dwarf Supreme,Apr. 16 2007,17:52"][/quote]
I have a question:

if you fight chaos (CSM) against marines...there could be exactly the same models on each side...right? there are not many models which chaos could not take from the marines but not vice versa...right?

(primarch @ Apr. 16 2007,22:04)

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Hi!

No, CSM cannot use drop pods, SM transport ships, teleport rules for termies, SM attack bikes, razorbacks, any of the land raider variants and I believe someone mentioned chaos cannot take T-hawks either.

So CSM cannot not use quite a few things regular marines can.

I'm sure others will add to my list.

Primarch

(primarch @ Apr. 16 2007,22:01)

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Hi!

I think one problem with the tyranid rules and the rest of the rules is that tyranids added WOUNDS to the rules. Until then all weapons did the equivalent to ONE wound. After tyranids were introduced weapons were never updated. I think the best way to solve this is that weapons inflict one wound per -1 TSM. We can discuss this more fully under the tyranid discussion. But I think its the easiest way.

Opinions?

Primarch

(primarch @ Apr. 16 2007,22:01)

QUOTE

Hi!

I think one problem with the tyranid rules and the rest of the rules is that tyranids added WOUNDS to the rules. Until then all weapons did the equivalent to ONE wound. After tyranids were introduced weapons were never updated. I think the best way to solve this is that weapons inflict one wound per -1 TSM. We can discuss this more fully under the tyranid discussion. But I think its the easiest way.

Opinions?

Primarch

(darkangel @ Apr. 16 2007,22:47)

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ok, you are right, the thunderhawk is the only unit which gives me the feeling of something special...the attack bikes are ok, but they are not a unit which makes my opponent frightened

...but...

chaos do have drop pods (but 2 less, only a little advantage)

teleporting? you mean the grey knights? (special card and 400 points - expensive advantage!)

landraider variants - only the black templars do have some (and less armour by 1, only a weapon with 50 max. range - no advantage)

razorbacks, I do not have some and that is ok at all - no advantage

and I did not find the datas for a "sm transport ship" what unit do mean?

and csm...the have access to very dangeros units described in the standard and power list...

(darkangel @ Apr. 16 2007,17:47)

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ok, you are right, the thunderhawk is the only unit which gives me the feeling of something special...the attack bikes are ok, but they are not a unit which makes my opponent frightened

...but...

chaos do have drop pods (but 2 less, only a little advantage)

teleporting? you mean the grey knights? (special card and 400 points - expensive advantage!)

landraider variants - only the black templars do have some (and less armour by 1, only a weapon with 50 max. range - no advantage)

razorbacks, I do not have some and that is ok at all - no advantage

and I did not find the datas for a "sm transport ship" what unit do mean?

and csm...the have access to very dangeros units described in the standard and power list...

(zap123 @ Apr. 16 2007,19:32)

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We need to be careful not to make the wounds worthless...the units presumably have already paid for the "survivability".  I think 1 wound per -1 TSM is probably too much.  In that scenario an unsaved Volcano cannon shot would drop a Dominatrix in one hit, and two would knock down a Hierophant.  Perhaps 1 wound for every 2 negative TSM, rounding down.  (eg.  -1 & -2 TSM = 1 wound, -3 & -4 TSM = 2 wounds, -5 & -6 = 3 wounds).  

One option OzT and I discussed for the Bio-Titans is to perhaps make "Penetrating" count as both a modifier to the Critical roll, and the damage roll.  

Another option I probably prefer is to just slow the Bio-Titans down....give them similar movement to other Titans....10cm on Advance, 15 on Charge or similar....stop them getting into your DJ on turn 2 and give you more chance to shoot them.