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Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...

 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:20 pm 
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Again, you are correct on all counts, from a historical point of view. Titans shift the paradigm, however by trying to use reality as a model, we can come to some "reasonable" state, as well as playability.

Again Titans are big targets, like aircraft carriers or battleships, they wield a lot of power and should be protected from orbital fire, surface fire, airstrikes, and even assault troops (commandos). There are examples of this throughout history. ?

But again my gaming experience shows that by turn 3 or so, Titans are smoking wrecks. There is an old "Grunt" saying, "Heavy weapons draw fire" and the bigger the target the more the fire...

So again to wave the "Alter Kampfer" flag for gents, like Primarch, Maksim, Jimbo and myself, we come from the school of "been there, done that." But everyone should feel free to state their opinion, that's what makes this site what it is - Great! :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:51 pm 
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Legion-4 and gang,

I'm discovering an interesting phenomenon in E-A that I didn't see much of before.

My Gargantz are being ignored MANY games. They don't attract any fire at all and rest of my army recieves all of the "attention."

I'm not sure if it's a bad policy wither since Gargantz really don't have that much fire power and agaisnt many opponents can't do that much significant damage (of course, they can destroy things!).  

What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:58 pm 
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Well you said it, they don't have that much fire power...

It does not take long to realize where the threat is and apparently it's not Gargantz! :;): ?

Too "bad," anything that big should be deadly... ???

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:04 pm 
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This is an interesting dilema.

From my relitively newbieish standpoint I see Titains as such:-

From what fluff I've seen they are purely offensive weapons. Yet in E:A they have taken what seems like a defencive stance. Apart from the Ork Gargants which can't seem to hit the backside of a barn door from the inside but thats another story. Most of the Titains are heavy weapons platforms, more reminicent of Tanks in 40k (GW's biggest crime! Tanks are for attack damn it!) than attack machines.

A second thing is the scale of Titains. Under 40k rules, a las cannon, to be able to hit the midrift of a titian would have to fire a max range, right from its very toes. However this would not make a very good game would it? I personaly can see a single marine ... hell... a single grechin being able to take out a titian, if it were soffened up first.

Piture the scene...

You are Greensnot the Grot.

Above you stands the might of the Imperium, A warlord, towering down on you.

However the soopa guns have taken thier tool on this warlord. Gapeing holes in its armour, small fires starting in the engine rooms, limbs malfunctioning, the thing is looking worst for ware... not completely weaked.

So you level your blunderbus and fire wildly.

Lucky for you your shot spaters into one of these gapeing holes and ruptures some pipelines in the knee joint. the Titian Collapses, and while far from a smoking weak, is no longer any use in battle, face down in the mud, untill the repair teams come in.

Unluckly for you, your Slaver takes the credit for the kill.

****************************

So what I'm saying is that, yes infantry should be able to take down a titian, but not on thier own. A bit like a machine gun vs the Tank, you can fire at it all day, but you still need the artiliry to crack it open. If this could be simulated then great, but at the momment it isn't so I'm a bit miffed.



However on the point of being ignored, I can certainly see this happening. In my case preticularly with the Eldar Halo fields. Trying to get rid of, in the case of the phantom and warlock titians, 2, 2+ saves, then a 3+, then several 4+'s is a huge investment in seriosly heavy firepower that could quite easily rip apart a vast swade of the low numbers fielded by the Eldar.

However my main gripe with E:A Titians is when they face each other in close combat.

My background being in 40k, you can expect similar lords of the battlefield showdown every now and then, and they will live up to the billing so to speak. My best personal experiance of this was a one on one showdown between the Avtar and my SM Force commander, right in the middle of the battlefield, for what would effectively decide the game. The combat was spectactular, both being taken down to thier last wound (Thankyou master crafted lighteneing claws!), one Iron halo save for the match! Failed! Doh! 2 of the most spectacular turns of close combat I've taken part in thou...

However when two titians clash preticularly of the imperial veritiay:-

*Clang*
*smash*
*Clang*
*smash*
*Clang*
*smash*
*Clang*
*smash*
*Clang*
*smash*

And so on....
It just goes on and on and on! Void shields keep on recharging!

Even with Titan killer close combat weapons Wieled by orks and Eldar it can take 6 turns of one attack at a time close combat for one to go down. It just gets silly!

Unless I've read the rules incorrectly, titians need more than just the one close combat attack... baddly.


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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:04 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 16 2003 Aug.,07:51)
I'm discovering an interesting phenomenon in E-A that I didn't see much of before.

My Gargantz are being ignored MANY games. They don't attract any fire at all and rest of my army recieves all of the "attention."

We have one IG player who has played the Ork Warlord many times. He made that mistake only once. Yes, in round one you might be able to ignore it. But by round two you had better be dealing with it.

I watched the Gargant assault, yes I said assault, and desimate the IG tank formation. The Gargant took an objective and then moved on and let the big Guns mob hold it. Combined with a KOS formation to gain cross fire the Gargant was not fun to have in the IG back field. By the end of turn three the Gargant had been part of the elimination three IG formations.

Keep in mind the FF it gets to add in support of the KOS in assaults as well. Talk about a hammer and anvil.

IG player :o ?then ?:(

Ork Warlord ?:laugh:

dafrca

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:26 pm 
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Hi!


Legion-4 and gang,

I'm discovering an interesting phenomenon in E-A that I didn't see much of before.

My Gargantz are being ignored MANY games. They don't attract any fire at all and rest of my army recieves all of the "attention."

I'm not sure if it's a bad policy wither since Gargantz really don't have that much fire power and agaisnt many opponents can't do that much significant damage (of course, they can destroy things!).  

What do you guys think?


Actually this phenomenon occured in SM/TL at the end of its run with Imperator titans in play. If the opponent makes the judgement at the games beginning that he either lacks sufficient forces or firepower to take on such a unit with reasonable expectations of destroying it, then in game terms he will usually ignore it and turn to easier targets. This means in the long run that the Imperator (or in your case the gargant) doesn't get used, not becasue its weak per se, becasue the opponent deems it not worth the effort tackle. Tie this in that these units cost a lot of points and it usually means the other player has more points in conventional troops and you quickly find yourself without support troops as he ignore that unit. In a real sense you are outnumbered because he pits his non-titan force as a whole against your which is smaller due to the presence of the titan unit. It all amounts to the same thing, not worth bringing the titan.

From a game persepctive its bad because it invalidates the use of the unit. All units should have value and a reason for the opponent to destroy it. If its too weak or too strong it winds up either getting destroyed easily or ignored. Not much fun in that.

Granted its a difficult thing to balance.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:21 am 
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Quote (GA101 @ 16 2003 Aug.,19:04)
And so on....
It just goes on and on and on! Void shields keep on recharging!

Even with Titan killer close combat weapons Wieled by orks and Eldar it can take 6 turns of one attack at a time close combat for one to go down. It just gets silly!

Unless I've read the rules incorrectly, titians need more than just the one close combat attack... baddly.

Maybe I'm simply misunderstanding what you're saying, but Titans _do_ get more then one attack. They get one close combat attack for each point of damage capacity, so a Warlord Titan without a close combat weapon would get eight attacks.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:34 pm 
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Doh!

Thanks for clearing that up.


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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:20 pm 
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Just a side bar... for newbies... one of my favorite rants is to discuss Titans with close combat weapons! That's like putting a ram on a battleship! :o ?

Titans are mobile weapons platforms, like land battleships; they provide fire support for the ground forces. And in turn the ground troops provide protection as needed.

The Titan(s) roll forward with the ground forces, blasting everything in their path to obtain their objectives and complete the mission. Using the concept of "taking out the biggest threat first," Titans should blast each other, then the last "man" standing go after the next biggest threat - War Engines.

By putting a close combat weapon on a mobile weapons platfrom you are giving up another long range shot. I know this is another case of G/W being enamored with close combat.

However,?I suggest you all read Jervis's "Epic Evolution" article available on the G/W Epic site and IIRC in an issue of Epic Mag (?). He talks about wanting to create a game that reflects modern combined arms warfare (W.W.II on, is my guess, at least that's the way we play it...) ?

So Titans (and Gargantz [Maksim's spelling :D ]) would fit more into the role of a weapons platform, in my mind. But you can continue to put "goofy close combat" weapons on your Titans, go ahead give up a ranged shot... ?

So you can call me "goofy" or anything you like, just don't call me late for a meal, pay day or a show on the History Channel about combined arms warfare... :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:38 pm 
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Hi!

Normally it should alsways be a weapons platform, thats what they are good at and built for.

I do however like building close combat titans for a "titan hunting" role. Risky, sometimes they get blown to smithereens, but once in a while they close the gap and rip of some titan heads. Much fun.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:40 pm 
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Well, I do have one with Corvus Pod arms & head for assaulting buildings, however the Carapace mounts very heavy weapons, but that's the closest I get, to mounting other than heavy weapons on Titans.  But I'm not against having a little fun ... so I say go for it !  :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:08 am 
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Hi!

Clearly, close combat weapons are very specialized weapons, only really usefull if you are going to face enemy Titans in a close terrain setting such as a city, where close combat weapons on Titans have an edge. Any other scenario would be ludricrous since long-ranged wepaons and heavy firepower will most certainly have the edge.

Primarch.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:28 am 
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I used to regularly bring out a Warlord Titan with three Volcano Cannons and a Plasma Destructor. It was a really good armament load.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:51 am 
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All my Titans now have ranged weaponary, except on the Mega-Gargant where it was compulsory, and on the bug Titans... I agree, only in fights through cities etc. do they have that much potential, and long-ranged Titans tend to stay out of that sort of terrain if their commander is any good. ?

The Tyranid Titans with their faster movement and ability to scuttle straight over the top of much obstructing terrain (in E-40k), still got shot to pieces far more often than they got to combat in my experience, even with house rules making them significantly tougher.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:29 am 
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Yes, urban terrain is not Titan friendly. ?Send in the Grunts to clear the buildings, after the area has been pummeled by Titans, FA and airstrikes ... ?:D

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