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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:08 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Primarch, Regarding what Maksim posted on the playtest forum, I'm willing to wager it won't get deleted, since I think PG reads this forum and might do the contrary just to spite you... I was sort of wagering that not being able to just "sweep it under the carpet" like he did with the other post would create a conundrum for him. If he does delete it then we'll all know what has happened. He is still a member of this forum (last time I checked) although he hasn't posted here in awhile. I could check to see if he's been by the site, but it doesn't really matter. - I did receive an E-mail from him and he wants me to delete the post myself, because "I haven't checked" my facts and, in fact, lots of people are sending complaints about you (Maksim) and Swords' bickering in the thread." - Up until a few days ago when I reminded him that there was no way to contact the Epic_Moderator so the only comments would be from those posters who are " in the know" and know that PG is still the Epic_Moderator despite the Canada/USA subterfuge. - I don't rule out that there might be people complaining about Swords and I, but, if so, I would guess that they are all people from PG's coterie being that people couldn't contact the Epic_moderator until a few days ago. - I'd like to be able to check my facts, but I don't read minds and none of the people sending "complaints about you (Maksim) and Swords' bickering in the thread" have posted anything publicly as we tend to do things here at Epic40k.co.uk. - I'm still wondering why he called out "conversation" bickering since we're not fighting one iota. "Bickering" does indicate an argument, does it not? - He should call it "Banter and chatter" like he did before... LOL ? OK. Rant mode off! Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

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Gandalf the Grey	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida	Who would be complaining about you and Swords? SO far you guys have been really easy going. If there's been a complaint about anyone, it has to be about me! All I have to say is consider the source. _________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com
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Legion 4	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:30 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Wow! A lot of great discussion! And I guess guys like Swords & I may or may not have influenced the outcome of the rules. However I believe Jervis had a "vision" of what he wanted, and in reality it did not turn out too bad. But time will tell. ? Again, I'll have to look at Swords posts, I didn't realize that there was someone out there with a similar "take" on things. And an interesting observation, Maksim, I didn't realize I had a writing style out of the '50s, but I'll take that as a good thing - I'm very "old school!" _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (primarch @ 14 2003 Aug.,20:36) Much of my poor expectations come from the point that, while I don't support Epic-A, why couldn't you, Neal, Dafrca, Jimbo, Cybershadow and a host of other serious, reasonable people aren't the ones LEADING Epic-A or moderating those forums or otherwise "Calling the shots?" This is a good question. I would like to take a shot at answering it with a guess. When I first joined the Playtest form I was unsure how much our input would matter. So at that time I was posting maybe once a week or so. I was busy trying to learn the rules as published (Jervis' word docs). PG was posting every day and twice on Sunday. AFAIK, he was the only person who was always posting daily. I believe they asked him to moderate based on his "attendance" to the boards. Thus I think they did not spend a lot of time locating a board moderator. There is another point; the company has not put a lot of money into the board. Despite the fact it is paid for by GW/Fanatic it is a low priority. They do not have any official company person assigned to visit the boards in any regular cycles. Jervis comes when he can but that is it. Contrast this with WotC. Each board has a moderator (read volunteer) who is assigned to daily upkeep, known as WizO?s. Then they have a Real WotC employee who is tasked to oversee the boards on a daily basis. Fanatic first set up the playtest as a restricted board, people had to register and be given access. I would guess it was not intended to be a public board nor to be going forever. Playtest and then return players to the GW boards for fan discussions. Things changed over time. Just some thoughts. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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dafrca	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:24 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Oh and one other point: If I disagree with Gandalf or some of the others I respect but do not always agree with, I hope I am not seen as just a "Yes-Man" or "Fanboy" but rather a person who has an opinion. I hope I have disagreed enough with both Jervis and the PG core to be seen as someone who can make his own choices.   dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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dafrca	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:30 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	I can't help myself.... I love the banter! dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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nealhunt

Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:39 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Sorry this post is long. >> a. No one with any power to change things cares what you say. I think this is very wrong. Jervis has shown himself willing to bend on many things, and while not all of them have gone in the direction I wanted, I don't begrudge him his disagreement with my personal preferences.?I could rattle off a litany of things he changed based on feedback, and some he didn't change when he wanted due to howls of indignation. >> - b. All you get is flak from the fanboys and the "yes-men"...

Good to know I'm a fanboy/yes-man, because I tend to agree with Jervis. Honestly, I think he and I just have similar tastes in how the game runs.

>> Should moderators be members of the board or "anonymous" entities?

There is a problem with both. ?As a member, it becomes difficult to separate the "member's" opinion from the "as-moderator" opinion, both for the general population and for the moderator. As an anonymous entity, it can be easy to objectify the moderator.

In PG's case, he is abrasive. He knows he is abrasive. We've discussed it before. As a result, when he was asked to moderate, he figured that people would have a hard time differentiating between his "mix-it-up," argumentative style and his job as moderator.

He was right.

As it is, I think an anonymous account is best. He has put significant effort into doing a good job, IMHO, even if it has fallen short.

I do think he tends to give some people more latitude than others, largely because he knows them personally and has a good grasp on what their inflections would be if they were standing there speaking. In other words, he is less likely to misinterpret their posts as hostile.

>> whatever good points you seem to put up, a lot of them get drowned out by less "coherent" voices.

I mostly agree with this. ?I just wouldn't say it was all "good points."

There are 4 guys:
- Opsmed
- PG
- Marauder
- Hoplite -
Who all post frequently and play against each other a lot. As a result, they have a fairly insular group that has a strong voice. In the past, their collective opinion has held a lot of sway against more diverse opinions. They can change things fairly quickly when all of them agree, and it's hard to "undo" their suggestions.

A prime case is the Ork KoS issue. They collectively howled until it was decided that it was a real problem. They even convinced me. However, over the past month or two, it has come out that no one outside their group really feels that it is/was an issue, and the majority of the board represents a much wider range of style of play. My personal playtesting has convinced me I shouldn't have listened.

Hopefully, the Ork list restrictions will be lifted, but it may be too late, as there is a small window between Jervis's vacation and when the text goes to the printer.

------------------------------------

Gandalf (since you referenced it):

I said I was sick of the split fire argument because it has gone through at least 3 exhaustive arguments. While I can understand if a new person brings up an older, resolved issue, I know you have been in on all 3 of the iterations. All it's doing is clogging up the board and stirring up a bunch of bad blood.

In the past, I have also dogged PG out about doing similar things (not letting an argument drop). In fact, I was harsh enough about it that I received a reprimand in one of the Yahoo groups.

Don't get me wrong. To quote E. E. Montaigne, I enjoy "a harsh and manly fellowship. One that delights in the rudeness and vigor of its intercourse." I love to dig into an argument and fight passionately about it even to the point of getting ridiculously worked up over something silly, but when there is no more progress to be made, it's time to put it aside and move on.