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[Experimental] Tyranid AA
ragnarok
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:05 pm 
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I really like it.  It is in kjeeping with one of the Gargoyles uses and they have skimmer!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:28 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,19:12)
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I remember when you first proposed this same idea Chroma. I wasn't so keen on it then and same is happening now. The list just got a almost useless AA capability (not that I used AA much before, mind you), but the skimmer was sneaked in and cost upped by 5 points.

What aren't you keen on with it?  What are your arguments against?

Again, it's experimental.  It's here to be playtested or ignored as players see fit.

The ability is far from "useless"; it acts as a deterrent and is in character/flavour of how Tyranid attacks have been written about in the fluff.  Tyranids, especially early Hive Fleets like Kraken, should *not* have good AA capability.  Generally, I find Tyranids have enough bodies on the ground to absorb most air attacks anyway.

If the points hadn't been raised, wouldn't the complaint be that they were given a new weapon, but still cost the same?  *laugh*

As to skimmer "sneaked in", high flying Gargoyles seem more like skimmer/flyers to me than jumpers, so I changed that for this experiment.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:51 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,19:37)
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That's pretty much it *shrug*, Note that I've never wanted Tyranids to be good at AA. I've always wanted them to be worst at it. But the Meiotic Spore things aren't very good as they are immobile and thus easy to avoid.

Well, I don't know if my suggestion went unnoticed or was dismissed as useless (which would be perfectly fine with me, I tend to have lots of useless ideas ?:p ), but here it is again. I'm just curious to have other people's opinions:

- Remove AA attacks from all Tyranid units that currently have them.

- Add new rule, something along those lines:

"Aircraft formations automatically receive a Blast marker after their approach move. In addition, after each turn made by an aircraft formation during its approach and disengagement moves, it receives a Blast marker."

This would be an abstract way to represent aircraft being incapacitated by Tyranid spores. No casualties, but most aircraft wouldn't be able to activate the following turn.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:52 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 26 2007,19:37)
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I don't have very good arguments against it :).


You made me laugh out loud with that!

1. I just feel that it's next to useless (due to fact that you lost a unit to use it and have 15cm range). NH hit the head of the nail with the way I'd use it pretty much.


But like I said before, that is *exactly* the point; it's a representation of the potential "expendability" of lesser Tyranid creatures, but it's not greatly effective.

Approaching Tyranid swarms are often described as having a "cloud of Gargoyles" swarming above them and I think this really represents that effect.

2. It raises the cost of a common brood unit. I understand that it has to do that, but that is a problem IMO by itself. Units need to be cheap not expensive, especially common brood. Any extra stuff that raises the cost is a problem.

Is 25 points really that expensive?  I'd *still* take as many Raveners as I could, even with their downgrade as I *hate* having no armour at all on things.

3. It allows almost all swarms to have mobile air cover (although near useless one) from common brood. The zoanthropes (which had the same problem) did come from uncommon and were thus competing places with bit better units.

See above about "clouds of Gargoyles".  Do you really want to always put infantry units into your armoured assault swarms?  They're going to get shot on the way to the battle... *laugh*

I'm just asking you to give it a try!

That's pretty much it *shrug*, Note that I've never wanted Tyranids to be good at AA. I've always wanted them to be worst at it. But the Meiotic Spore things aren't very good as they are immobile and thus easy to avoid.

The main problem with the Meiotic Spore, to me, is the opponent's view of it being a "6+ TK(1)" attack... I don't think it'll sit well with them.

I'm putting something together for the Meiotic Spores in a different experimental rule.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:54 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Feb. 26 2007,19:51)
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- Add new rule, something along those lines:

"Aircraft formations automatically receive a Blast marker after their approach move. In addition, after each turn made by an aircraft formation during its approach and disengagement moves, it receives a Blast marker."

Sorry I didn't respond to this Hojyn.

It's an interesting idea, but my main problem with it is opponents *HATE* suffering effects they can do nothing to prevent and I think this type of thing would greatly irk them.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:00 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 26 2007,19:54)
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It's an interesting idea, but my main problem with it is opponents *HATE* suffering effects they can do nothing to prevent and I think this type of thing would greatly irk them.

Oh, right, that's a good point. I didn't think of it.

Now that I do, though, aircraft units would not be destroyed, just slowed down, so it might be acceptable.

Worst case scenario for Tyranid opponent:

Turn 1: attack, receive 2-4 BMs
Turn 2: failed activation
Turn 3: attack, receive 2-4 BMs
Turn 4: failed activation

Giving this "meiotic spore cover" a points cost would be tricky, though. 100 points??? I really have no idea.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:25 pm 
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From a background persepctive, I greatly dislike the idea of a unit of gargoyles madly flapping up from essentially gound level to possibly hundreds of feet in the air fast enough to intercept an aircraft going hundreds of miles an hour.

If there's a cloud of gargoyles protecting from aircraft, it's not the same gargoyles that are on the board.

===

Whoops.  I didn't notice the point increase.  25% bump in points is the equivalent of a 50% increase in firepower.

Some things you just know.  One of them is that there is no way I'm paying a 25% preimum for a near-useless ability.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:30 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 26 2007,21:25)
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If there's a cloud of gargoyles protecting from aircraft, it's not the same gargoyles that are on the board.


Uh... that's why they're removed from the board when you use the ability...   :D

Whoops. ?I didn't notice the point increase. ?25% bump in points is the equivalent of a 50% increase in firepower.

Some things you just know. ?One of them is that there is no way I'm paying a 25% preimum for a near-useless ability.


They also become skimmers in this experiment, so that is also included in the point increase.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:45 pm 
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Perhaps only remove them if they actually hit the plane?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:51 pm 
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(Markconz @ Feb. 26 2007,21:45)
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Perhaps only remove them if they actually hit the plane?

I feel that makes their use a complete no-brainer and is definitely not what I want.

Would adding disrupt to the "Swarm Strike" make them more appealing?

I'd still like to see people test them.  I've only had one game with them so far.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:59 pm 
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I obviously don't understand.

Why is Skimmer needed?  Or even desired to any extent?

How you guys are using Gargoyles?  Around here they are most typically in a formation with a mix of ground units - something like Vituperator/Raveners (transported)/Gargoyles.  With no infantry SCs that can move quickly (except the pending winged Warriors), they almost have to be mixed.

You don't need to force FF.  If the nids are initiating, they can choose their range.  If the enemy is initiating, they will choose FF 90+% of the time.  In the rare instances they do choose CC and get into base contact with a Gargoyle, the rest of the swarm will countercharge into base contact.  Anyone bold enough to CC the Gargoyles isn't going to be put off by forced FF.  If the rest of the swarm doesn't countercharge into base contact, the Nids lose all those sweet CC attacks as well.

The way I see it, Gargoyles are essentially a niche unit as it is.  If you want to use them you have to basically plan your initial swarm design around them.  I think the change (especially increasing their point cost) is simply going to make that niche that much smaller and result in far fewer Gargoyles.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:05 pm 
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What does Skimmer add to the Gargoyles instead of JumpPacks? They have no ranged attack, so pop-up attacks are not possible.

EDIT: oh nealhunt was faster :D




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