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Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
thurse
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:00 pm 
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Hi!
I have a few remarks about the current discussion :

Most people on the french forum, ( and most players in general I think ) don't come here and don't follow the discussions. So they download the list on the SG site and play the army.
When they use the regeneration rule, for example ( there's a typo in the PDF... ) they actually think that the rule is ridiculously overpowered, and they are right... As they don't know it is a typo, they might conclude that the list is badly designed : if such an unbalanced rule exists, all other rules are potentially flawed.

I'm a regular nid opponent and I think all the propositions there come in the right direction. But we could improve the way the list is released :
- Some wordings could be improved
- Design notes could be added
- when a new version is released, coloring the changes in red ( as they did for blood bowl ), would help players to notice the changes between versions.
- It could be nice to add a little paragraph dedicated to nid opponents : as Hena said playing against nids is very disturbing.

This would help getting the list accepted by the whole epic community.
I know, it's easier to say that than to do it!


On your propositions, some more feedback :
- I'm Ok with everything, nice job!
- I think the hydraphant should not be fearless. In other armies fearless titans can be fought with BM, if you don't have TK weapons. It's not easy, but possible. Against the nids, you can't. I know it's a good way to make it different from the hierophant, but game balance would IMHO be better without fearless
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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:13 pm 
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Keep fearless for the Hydraphant -how many other titans can be killed (from undamaged) by a single AT shot?

Who's he going to be scared of anyway? :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Agreed. I'm rather more concerned for Jaldon right now than the state of the list.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:21 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 26 2007,12:55)
QUOTE
Agreed. I'm rather more concerned for Jaldon right now than the state of the list.

I've sent emails to the only email address I have for Jaldon, half the messages seem to have gone through and the other half have bounced... but no response from him at all.

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thurse
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Hena,
Please don't take what I said as criticism. In fact I agree with your arguments, it's about what I say on the french forum.
I was just trying to explain the reactions we see elsewhere.
I was actually very surprised to read that the nid list was incredibly overpowered.
I know that Jaldon had an accident, and I obviously won't make any criticism about the fact that he's missing. In fact, I fear it might be serious, as he has always been very fast to answer.


But everyone I play I always guide them to here to check the list in text format.If you are playing against tyranids, then you should do the same

That's what I do but don' play with everybody on the forum...
Anyway, we can admit that it's not easy to be up to date with the list developpent. .


Back to the topic:

Every other armies smallest titans have it, why disallow our largest

I don't like this point : nid fearless creatures do not behave the same as in other armies. Furthermore, a hydraphant is cheap, compared to other DC8 engines. 2 hydras in a 3000-point army is really awful. And with 25cm move, you actually can go in CC. ( I remember a time where they had 4+ FF :) )


how many other titans can be killed (from undamaged) by a single AT shot

Yes, I know that and to be honest, I don't like it. Way to random for me. Lightbringer is quite right and often the only way I have to deal with these thing is to shot at and pray for the 6. What's the rationale behind these criticals?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:48 pm 
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What's the rationale behind these criticals?


I suspect the reason is historical... the E40k era Bio-Titans had similarly savage critical hit tables IIRC.

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thurse
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Ok thanks for the answers.
I often kill them with 6 in fact ( when I manage to kill them... )


That comes from the fact that our titans are living beings. They have "vulnerable spots" (hearts, brains and all kinda organs)

Not really sure about that, as mechanics have vulnerable parts... After all, perhaps is it why the powers rangers always win against the space monsters. I've got to analyse that by watching that incredible movie featuring ?Godzilla versus robot-king kong
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Markconz
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:00 am 
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(Hena @ Jan. 26 2007,12:56)
QUOTE
Yes, I know that and to be honest, I don't like it. Way to random for me. Lightbringer is quite right and often the only way I have to deal with these thing is to shot at and pray for the 6. What's the rationale behind these criticals?

That comes from the fact that our titans are living beings. They have "vulnerable spots" (hearts, brains and all kinda organs). And biological organisms cannot survive the pounding that a metallic vehicles can. Most of my kills (either playing against or for) on bio titans haven't come from lucky '6' dice roll.

The distinction between biological and mechanical has no real relevance when both are engineered to withstand modern weapons.  Both will have weak points - control centres, transmission systems etc.

We view the mechanical as strong and the biological as weak today, only because we are not yet clever enough to engineer the biological. That is not the case for tyranids.

The strongest substance on earth is spider silk (much stronger than kevla or steel). Fear the arachnid menace  :alien:

The tyranid crits and abilities must be balanced in game relative to other races (whose crits were also more severe in Epic40k), not according to preconceptions over their properties (especially when those preconceptions are totally false anyway).

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:39 am 
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How could I of missed this thread?

I like most of the changes being proposed here, except for the non fearless on the heirophant.  It doesn't feel right that something that is Reaver sized (no offense reaver) can be killed off by it trying to eat too mnay guardsmen.

I would prefer a points increase to it not having fearless (this will also help stop nid bio titan swarms).

I also think that the malenthrope is too expensive, it is almost as expensive as a titan and is a LV.  I would prefer to take a harridan over one any day.  even though a Harridan is more vulnrable, it has the speed to jump from cover to cover.

Finally on the criticals.  Though I accept that we have harsh criticals (whch help to keep the points cost down), Markconz is right in saying that the tyranid biological is just as strong, if not stronger than mechanical.

Their big beasts have multiply redundant systems (such as brains) and a massive regenative capability.  Blow a leg off of a warlord titan it falls over, blow a leg off of a bio titan it grows back then eats you.

The hive mind can also animate the bodies of its creatures for a while after they have died (the catalyst physic power).

Finally, in the nid codex, a marine sweep team were checking a planet they had bombed with cylclonic torpedoes (sounds much nicer than exterminatus) and had found a carnifex that survived.  This spooked them out and they called in an orbital strike.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Here's my suggestioHenas changes for 7.1 (v7.1-h1)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:39 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 28 2007,07:34)
QUOTE
I've one more thing to add.

Hydraphant, I'm thinking of removing the warp blast from this as it shouldn't be psychic. But that would leave only zoanthrope to be the AA platform (and dominatrix of course). Is it enough? My alternative is to add AA5+ to Harridans bio cannons, but that can cause a raise it it's cost. Another alternative is to give Hydraphant some other weapon that has AA capability, but frankly it sounds "bolted on" (and no better than current warp blast).

I would remove AA from Zoanthrope anyway, and introduce AA Spore mines.

The Acid spore mines from the 40k range are an almost exact match scalewise for FW's meiotic spores.


(Independent)


Meotic Spore:

Speed 10cm
Armour 5+
AA4+  Range 30cm

Notes: Teleport.


Cost would be.... 25 points per spore?



Having AA on Zoanthropes is a big discrepancy with 40k (Where they're very lame at shooting at aircraft, they're probably more likely to hurt themselves than the plane!), and with the Background (Where Meiotic Spores are the AA).

So yeah, 40k scale Acid spore mines are perfect for the task.

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