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Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:20 am 
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Classic Gorgons will definitely have a place in there. :)




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:01 am 
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Good to hear !  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:02 pm 
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New update coming later tonight (Was ready before the holidays actually but you know how it goes!).

I've got my first Company choice painted up now (A SC company, with Thudd & Rapier support).

Hopefully my second infantry company will arrive tomorrow, as will by death riders company.



Here's my initial 3000pts playtesting list incidentally:

Supreme Commander Company - 450
3x Thudd Guns - 100
3x Rapiers - 100

6x Leman Russ (Four Standard & Two Destroyers) - 420
2x Manticores & 1x Hydra - 200


Infantry Company - 350
3x Hellhounds - 150
2x Gorgons - 150

1x Superheavy (Probably Stormsword) - 175
2x Deathstrikes - 200


Death Rider Company - 250

3x Medusas - 250
2x Manticores & 1x Hydra - 200


Note this uses the revised points costs from the 1.81 list.

1. Leman Russ dest to AT4+ sniper. That 3+ (at 75cm) is rather good. Also range drop to 60cm might be in order as it is only 15 points more expensive as ordinary leman russ.


I'd be tempted to increase the cost before downgrading it to AT4+... it's meant to be more accurate and more deadly than a Vanquisher. As it is it's only as accurate as a Vanquisher if you Sustain Fire.

2. Once more I'll push for dropping shadowsword. Possibly baneblade as well.

Not right now. DK definitely have access to all four types (And more heavy tanks yet to be released too)


3. The removal of scouts from rough riders is a good move. And I'd add the Sentinels to make some scouting force. If sentinels really stay away, then add smaller rough rider force with scout.

A scouting Rough Rider Support Formation sounds quite a good idea actually!

I'm going to try and get some concrete info on whether the DK use sentinels soon, and then we can make a call on this issue.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:21 pm 
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Latest Version: Version 1.81

Changes:

- Death Rider company lost scout and dropped by 50 points.
- Gorgons went up to 150 points.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:46 pm 
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The best alternative is put it 60cm AT4+ and that might still be cheap at the 80 points.


It would be against the background to downgrade its accuracy, but 60cm is justifiable (It is meant to be slightly shorter ranged than a Vanquisher, contrary to my previous mistake). I'd rather raise the price than drop the accuracy however (100 points sound good?).

Your Hive Tyrant should probably be hiding behind a Heirodule. :D

Lists shouldn't be what they have access to, but what do they ordinarily field and what fits the theme of the army.

Yep, and all four super-heavies are ordinarily available to DK armies.

I'll repeat again that the only reason the four super heavies weren't given to the Steel Legion or Barran lists is because Jervis didn't want to give sales to ForgeWorld... He used to justify this by saying that it was unfair because they were only available to purchase online... well these days so are the SG models!

There's no other reason for them to be missing from the original IG lists, especially for the Siegemasters who (As a PDF army) are far more likely to have the two FW 'rebuild' variants than they are to have 'originals'!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:01 pm 
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I've managed to find out (Fairly defninitively though not 100% conclusively) that there are currently no plans to do Sentinels for the Death Korps.

So most likely scouting Rough Rider formations would be a good analogue.


How accurate that is really?


It's simply my opinion.

The whole way in which the 'no-FW' bias was presented just screams of inter-department rivalry to me.




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orangesm
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:37 pm 
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But those two Superheavies are the most common Superheavies from a background prespective.

The Stormsword is a Shadowsword or Stormblade whose primary weapon has been destroyed and is unrepairable for some reason.  They are not normally found in brand new units.

I can agree in dropping a Superheavy, but I would argue for it to be the Stormblade as it is most likely the rarest of the 4.  It has a gaint plasma gun that is hard to fake (the Volcano Cannon could be 'faked' using various other guys).

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:43 pm 
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If I could chip in here, one of the iconic elements fo the DKOK is the overwhelming use of SH vehicles.  One of your arguments seems to be that the way in which lists are designed is through what is left out as much as included, I would argue that this is represented here by the severe limits on company formations, medium-light armour and Sp artillery.  Given that Sh tanks can only be fielded singly (hence easily supressed), whether shadowswords are in the list is hardly going to affect balance.  Given that it is definately fluffy for the DKoK to have a wide selection of Sh vehicles I would argue that keeping all patterns of SH tank available is very  beneficial to the feel of the list.

I would be more worried about all the LR variants, particularly having sniper on a heavy weapon....

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Jok3r's expressed my reasons for keeping all four Super-Heavies quite succinctly there... quite simply it's one of their iconic traits that they have access to a lot of super-heavy vehicles.

I'm going to raise the Destroyer's points cost up to 100 pts though, and drop the range to 60cm.




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:03 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 22 2006,17:30)
QUOTE
The difference is that Gorgons are veritable deathtraps. The destruction of a Gorgon leads to the death of 10 infantry stands with no saves.

The invulnerable save to the front arc has an important reason to exist, just as the glancing save does in 40k.

As I mentioned above, the next version of the list has an exception which only allows the save against AT-type fire.

Other than being open-topped, the Gorgon has very good armoured protection and the same DC as a Baneblade in 40k, plus the glancing rule.


That's too tough. Can you make it a Light Vehicle?


Not a chance. It's a DC-3 War Engine in 40k, exactly the same as a Baneblade, but with superior armoured protection (Although it has mildly more damaging critical results due to being open-topped).

Want to do some number-crunching, then?

Let's take two sample AT weapons in 40K, the demolisher and the lascannon. Let's just treat the vehicle as a normal vehicle, and work out the probability of it being destroyed by a single hit (for War Engines this translates roughly as a single DC being lost).

Demolisher vs AV14
p=7/36
=0.19

Demolisher vs AV14 (open topped, 4+ vs glancing)
p=1-((1-(3/36x1/2+8/36))^2)
=0.46

That's a fairly significant increase!

On the other hand, a lascannon makes very little difference:

Las vs AV14
p=5/36
=0.14

Las vs AV14 (open topped, 4+ vs glancing)
p=5.5/36
=0.15

Still - there's no justification from 40K transposition that the Gorgon be tougher than a baneblade - certainly not "superior armoured protection!"

The other problem is... you've now got an invulnerable save AND a special rule. You really need to cut down the special rules to an absolute minimum. What have you got now... an invulnerable save that really is just an improvement to your armour save? So why not just give the damn thing an improved armour save in the first place and cut a special rule?

I think that you should just make it 4+ RA and be done with it. If there are serious problems in playtesting then you can address it later, making it tougher if necessary.

An alternative would be to make it 3+RA and a Light Vehicle. This would make it very tough, especially against most conventional AT and MW weaponry, but, obviously, would increase the amount of fire directed at it. I think this is the most true to the 40K rules.

If you REALLY need a special rule, then how about:
Give it a 5+ save and Reinforced armour and give it a special rule that states that it always recieves a 3+ (or even 2+) cover save.

That way Macro Weapons and Ignore Cover weapons will do justifiably large armounts of damage, but normal AT fire will do little.



As for all the other issues, you seem to be missing the point. Is it a mechanised (superheavy) tank-heavy WWI/II army, or is it an infantry-based siege list?

Are they equipped with rare tank variants, lots of superheavies? Yes? Then why on earth do they not have tank companies and super-heavy tank companies?

Are they infantry-heavy trenchers with large siege guns in support? Great! So why do they have access to five different types of battle tank and four types of superheavy? If these things are siege weapons then I guess that's fine. Why are they using tank- (and titan-) busting Laser Destroyers and Shadowswords?

Right now, you seem to be pushing the list in three different ways. The "infantry" army, the "siege" army and the "lots of fancy tanks" army. I think you can safely combine two of these things.

You need to focus the list onto the theme, because it makes little sense to have four different types of super-heavy tank and no super-heavy tank companies.

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