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Separate Lists?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:05 am 
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I'd be in factrion 3.


Which would be several 'small' lists, which are designed to be balanced when used in conjunction with each other.


Thus for example, a Titan list could be used alone, or in conjunction with a Knight list, or in conjunction with a Marine list, etc.

So faction 3, the 'Rules patch' faction.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:00 pm 
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I was originally in faction 1 but that effort to get the list pushed through has obviously failed - there have been no changes to the list for approx. a year and the army champion is MIA.

So I do believe faction 2 is the wayto go now as the hurry to create one general list is no longer necessary or applicable to the current SG situation.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:34 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 14 2006,01:05)
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...several 'small' lists, which are designed to be balanced when used in conjunction with each other.


Thus for example, a Titan list could be used alone, or in conjunction with a Knight list, or in conjunction with a Marine list, etc.

You're back to the situation where TK weapons are more valuable with a Marine army, high volume weapons would be more valuable with Knights, etc..  I don't think you could ever design a modular system like that which was balanced.  There would always be min-max options.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:31 am 
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You're back to the situation where TK weapons are more valuable with a Marine army, high volume weapons would be more valuable with Knights, etc..  I don't think you could ever design a modular system like that which was balanced.  There would always be min-max options.


Aye I know we've been over this ground before...

All I can suggest is that you try a few games with the modular weapons list and see what you think afterwards? Or even try and 'break' it theoretically.


After all... all titans currently cost the same, regardless of the army they're attached to... the current system is no less imbalanced than one that has been designed to avoid cheap army-synergies.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:24 pm 
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I wasn't talking about a by-weapon-point-cost system.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seemed you said you wanted a set of imperial army lists that would allow you to choose freely between multiple imperial factions.  That's a very different and more problematic thing.  With substantially different character for each of the Imperial factions a player can simply cherry pick the best options from each list to eliminate weaknesses and/or amplify strengths.

Just to pull one example you used, why would anyone take mediocre Tech Guard formations to support their titans when they can take a Marine air assault force?  It's not like the titans need support for the first turn or two.  In the GT the Tech Guard is target practice for the enemy but a necessary evil because you have to have activations and formations to grab objectives.  Marines in Thawks give fabulous objective taking abilities, a far greater likelihood of remaining as viable activations and can't be targetted until you decide it's worth the risk.  It's a no-brainer.  TG out, SM in.

Stuff like this has been tested before.  Chaos playtesting included a phase where you could have CSMs and Cultists in the same list.  A cheap horde covering the elite, monstrously good assault troops while they closed was unbalanced.  It was so much better than any other troop composition that to balance the list it would have to be the defining force composition, driving the point costs and making other options like pure CSM or pure cultists too expensive.


Or, like I said, maybe I misunderstood your meaning.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:41 pm 
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Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seemed you said you wanted a set of imperial army lists that would allow you to choose freely between multiple imperial factions.  That's a very different and more problematic thing.  With substantially different character for each of the Imperial factions a player can simply cherry pick the best options from each list to eliminate weaknesses and/or amplify strengths.


Nah I was just talking about Titans, Knights & Ordinatii, having each of the three as 'patches' that would be balanced when 'patched' onto another Imperial list.

Just like the modular titans list basically, but with Knights & Ordinatii.

It seems the most sensible way to do it to me, and it was the originally intended way of doing it too (Until SG had the rug pulled out from under it, ie: there were supposed to be annual rules patches for new units for the armies through an Epic Annual, at least that's what it says in the main rulebook!).

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Pariah Press
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:39 am 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 13 2006,14:25)
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2) ?Knight list - Exclusively knight world forces. ?Personally I favor a "mounted" sort of concept with Knights supported by Sentinels, Bikes, and so on.

NO SENTINELS!  You can't give weapons to drovers; they might get ideas about rebelling.  

 I can see the value of a specialized Knight World list, as they are often without the support of their parent forge world (fighting pesky Eldar Exodites and such).  However, I would like the option to field titans with tech-guard and knights together in one army, personally.  

 Oh, and would you be so kind as to optimize the list to match the exact models on my shelf, please?  Thanks.   :;):

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:52 am 
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That's why I believe Knights, Titans and Ordinatii should be put in 'mini-lists', not really full lists in their own right, but usable with any other Imperial list.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:18 am 
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I would love a KnightWorld Armylist in conjunction with an Eldar Exodite Armylist.

I would create 3 different Armylists. TitanLegion, TechGuard and KnightsWorlds. Each would be allowed to field 25% of its points from one or both of the other 2 armylists but are restricted to some certain formations (eg no Warden Knights for TechGuard or TitanLegions because they never leave their homeworld).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:20 am 
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It seems the most sensible way to do it to me, and it was the originally intended way of doing it too (Until SG had the rug pulled out from under it, ie: there were supposed to be annual rules patches for new units for the armies through an Epic Annual, at least that's what it says in the main rulebook!).


Where does it say that?  AFAIK, from the very beginning the idea was specifically not to retrofit units into existing lists.  I've never seen Jervis even hit about it and recall several times where he laid out in detail why he wanted to avoid it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:17 am 
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I got that impression from the Q&A in the rulebook:

Q: "What happens... a few months into the game's release, you want to release a new unit for an army?.....bring them back over time?"

A: "We'll use the Epic website... and an Epic Annual to keep players up to date... as long as you have the rulebook and the latest Annual then you have the 'official' rules to the game. Other material that appears in between will be experimental until the Annual comes out."

Of course the Annual never reached production, so we'll never know what models might or might not have been added at that point, but the intention is pretty explicit.

There are other hints here and there in the Q&A as to Jervis' plan for army expansions.

I do note that Jervis preferred fixed configurations for his intended Titan variant weapons releases though (At least for the GT that is. He also mentions Titan design rules for non-GT games, ie: those that use points costs but which aren't played at an official tournament (99% of games!)).

I love that Q&A... apparently we're getting Necrons in 2007. :D




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Necrons in '07 ?!?!?! ?:alien: ?If that was recent intell I'd be happy ! :)   But that's why there is DRM & E/W ! :D




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:58 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 15 2006,16:41)
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Nah I was just talking about Titans, Knights & Ordinatii, having each of the three as 'patches' that would be balanced when 'patched' onto another Imperial list.

I've been thinking about this and I'm still not sure that I understand what you're talking about.  I'm going from the assumption that you mean that Titans/Knights/Ordinati would be available to any of the core Imperial lists and that you're talking about the add-on forces being pretty much just titans/knights/ordinati and not including Tech Guard or non-Knight householders.

That  could possibly work, but there might be an interaction here or there that makes things squirrelly.

I think the combination of Knights and IG would end up working a lot like the CSM/Cultist combo.  The drawbacks of knights are not as severe as the drawbacks for the big boys.  In playing a home-made Knight list the main weakness is that the Knights are fragile but heinously nasty if they make it to assault.  An IG force could provide more than enough bulk to shield them until they get close and give them serious support, much like the L&D did for CSMs with daemons.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:46 pm 
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Yeah you've got me right, I didn't expect Tech Guard etc to be in any 'patch' lists, since they would be generally only available to Adeptus Mechanicus armies (Thus you'd need to use an Adeptus Mechanicus armylist in order to obtain them).

It's only a matter of finding an appropriate points cost for them IMHO (Possibly a lower cost for Marines & Inquisition and a higher cost for IG armies)

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:51 am 
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I am of the type one view point, as others have said ordinatus are extremelely rare one off weapons, so what is the justification for having multibles regularly fielded in the same battle, let alone the same planet?
Knights almost never take the fieled solely by themselves unless their home knight world is being attacked, they levi a household which fights besides a titan legion whenever they are off planet, which is the majority of the time they are in a battle, so to me it makes little sense for either of these forces to be split off from the titans list since neither makes sense from a fluff stand point.




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