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Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:53 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 13 2006,11:47)
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So yeah, lots of variety, but nothing that becomes game-breakingly so, In My HO. :D

Well, at least untill ordinatus Kreig[s] gets wheeled out MWUHOOHAHAHAHA!!  :devil:




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:59 pm 
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LOL  :D  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:21 pm 
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1. Drop all chimera variants, except save one which all then is. Individual turrets aren't needed in epic (ref. the comments on tau turrets).
2. Drop Vultures.
3. Mechanised infantry should be more expensive (as they are better at shooting and CC than regular units). Possibly drop amount to 8.
4. Drop Snipers ... (not much a siege weapon I would think)
5. Drop Roughriders (not really hight tech now is it)


1 - I'd prefer not to... each turret has an individual use and would allow the player to slightly theme an otherwise unmodifiable formation. I'll fight for this one, if only because I know that ForgeWorld themselves, if they ever put out a Death Korps army list, would include the variant turrets.

2 - I agree, Vultures should go.

3 - They're considerably worse at shooting than standard infantry (AP5+ 30cm as opposed to AP5+/AT6+ 45cm), though they do have CC5+ rather than CC6+. I don't think a points increase is deserved.

4 - Think 'Enemy at the Gates'. Think World War 1's Western Front. Snipers are 100% a siege-appropriate unit.

5 - The Death Korps of Krieg use Rough Rider cavalry charges (It's part of their wacky high-tech / low-tech dichotomy), so they have to stay in the list as a fluff thing. Death Riders




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orangesm
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:58 pm 
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So the Krieg list is supposed to be an offensive Siege Regiment, while the Baran is a defensive Siege Regiment.

At the moment with the List, other than not having mobile artillery (aside from the Medusa)  a player can create basicly any Regiment type they want.  I could build a Tank Regiment using the list, would need a different Supereme Command unit to make it feel right.  I can make a slow, heavy infantry regiment.  I can make a Mechanized Infantry Regiment (Tank Company w/ 2 Mechanized Platoons, might as well be 2 Mechanized Companies).

A specificly Krieg themed list that lets players build whatever type of Regiment they want as long as it is Krieg odviously does not make sense to me.  I think having each Imperial Guard list represent a different Regimental Type would be the way to go.


Overall I think that list structure would just result in a Steel Legion list with more flexibility and power (I don't think putting the Mech-Inf in Support would limit it as much as you suspect).


Then the Mechanized Platoon needs to be made smaller or a different vehicle set (it is 3 stands of infantry less and 1 vehicle less than the full company).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:13 pm 
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No OOP models where it can be avoided... that was an order from Neal Hunt.


Heh.  I don't really think I have the power to order anything.  :D  That was just a suggestion for "best shot at getting it to be official."


The only criticism I have is that I don't really have a sense of what the list's focus is supposed to be.

Steel Legion is mostly built around mech inf and armor, but as the core list obviously has enough variety to do lots of stuff.  To me this is the IG blitzkrieg list - move fast, hit hard, move on.

Baran is low quality, dug-in/static lines, tons of arty support.  This is the attrition trench warfare force.

I don't have a sense of Krieg.  Part of that is that I'm not very good with IG background info but I think the dizzying variety of units in the list, combined with a wide range of formation types is part of the issue as well.

It seems to me what you have is really the Steel Legion with slightly different gear.  The emphasis still seems to be on mech infantry and armor.  The shorter ranges and larger core formations could arguably lend themselves more to assault but there is plenty of long range, quality fire as well.  I also commonly see even the large IG formations reinforced (Mech Inf + Support = 26 units) so that's not a tremendous distinction.

It's possible that the list may play substantially differently than the core IG list.  I obviously haven't played it.  My opinion is based solely on how it looks on paper, but on paper it looks like it just maps over the Steel Legion list with Krieg gear, meaning it would work pretty much the same as a basic IG force as far as play experience.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:21 pm 
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I tend to agree with much of the above. The Death Korps is IMO one of the most visually appealing and well themed armies GW has ever produced so I'd obviously also like it to have a really cool and fluffy army list for E:A. However I also feel that the wide selection of unit types might make it a bit too flexible/unfocussed. It makes more sense to leave much of this in the generic Steel Legion list. If any army is supposed to have access to a selection of units this wide it should be the Cadian army IMO or perhaps even some kind of Forge World army (not necessarily Tech Guard though).
In short it feels a bit like this list is assuming that no one will do other IG variant lists in the future so it's trying to include all units which hasn't been used yet.
I'm all for including some of the Forge World IG units but all of them might be a bit OOT.

A good army list is just as much about the units which you do not have access to. If you take the SM2/TL era Imperial army you were allowed to pick just about everything and anything in the Imperial arsenal in the same army. You cold certainly make any sort of army you wanted to this way but it did cause IG to feel rather generic.

About what's fluffy or not remains an open question. Again I'm certainly no expert - particularly on the more recent GW fluff I don't want to make any claims as to what exactly is the "true feel" of the DKoK. Not that it matters all that much anyway: It's not exactly any secret that GW and FW are modifying fluff on an almost daily basis.
Let's not forget that the Siegemasters list was actually called the Death Korps of Krieg up untill very late in the design process. It's been too long for me to remember exactly what reasons Jervis gave for the change though I supose it might have been some debates with the "fluff boyz" at GW HQ.
Anyway I'm not saying that some DKoK armies might not have some Chimera or Russ variants but the question is if they field them in sufficiently large numbers on a routine basis to justify a list with such a wide range of detailed options. I'd rather make the choice to begin with: "Oh, if I want to field an Exterminator I need to play Ryza. If I want a Destroyer I play DKoK etc.etc."

Cheers :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:43 pm 
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Units in the Steel Legion list that are not in the DKoK list:


- Basilisk
- Manticore
- Hydra
- Bombard
- Griffon
- Ogryns
- Infantry Support Squad
- Valkyrie
- (Soon) Vulture
- Sentinel
- Deathstrike
- Baneblade
- Shadowsword

Take out the Leman Russ variants and it's actually a lot more constrained than the Steel Legion list.


However!

I've been convinced enough by the issues people have raised above to delete the Leman Russ Company option, and probably replace it with a smaller (6-tank?) Support Formation.

Some variant Russes could also come out at the same time (The Conqueror Russ seems a good first choice as it is the least Siege-orientated).

I'm not sure about Super-Heavies, but perhaps the Company choice there could be deleted entirely.

Salamanders (Both versions) could also go, to be replaced with the standard Sentinel formations.


The problem I see it that a lot of the changes above constrain the type of Company formations available, meaning that there will be a lot of competition for only a few Support Formation slots to support the poor quality infantry. (Note to Hena, this line was ommitted from the latest couple of versions due to a formatting error in the document 'Notes: Only one unit in every two (Rounding up) has a Twin Heavy Stubber.')

I'd possibly consider opening up Support Formations to 3 per Company in order to compensate for this reduction in Company formation choices.


Oh and move the Medusa formation to Support Formations too.


All in all, I'm convinced, the list as-is is a little too unfocused, and could probably do well by being dove-tailed into two seperate lists, an Infantry Regiment list, and an Armoured Regiment list.


Specific replies to follow. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:48 pm 
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(Hena @ Dec. 13 2006,13:36)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 13 2006,14:21)
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1 - I'd prefer not to... each turret has an individual use and would allow the player to slightly theme an otherwise unmodifiable formation. I'll fight for this one, if only because I know that ForgeWorld themselves, if they ever put out a Death Korps army list, would include the variant turrets.

That's what 40k is for. That not what epic is for. Epic isn't about small individual changes, but that in mass scale.

Epic is in an eternal struggle with this very question.

Why else would you be allowed single Commissars to affect great struggles, or single Vanquishers in tank formations, or any number of other minor changes available across many lists (3 different Marine Characters that can be added to any formation in the army list springs to mind... or even Winged/Not Winged Hive Tyrants).

4 - Think 'Enemy at the Gates'. Think World War 1's Western Front. Snipers are 100% a siege-appropriate unit.

However epic armies aren't supposed to be "one list for all" type. So unless you have good reason for A to exists then remove it when you are overflowing with units as is.

Snipers, above all, belong in an Infantry Siege regiment.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:54 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 13 2006,14:13)
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No OOP models where it can be avoided... that was an order from Neal Hunt.


Heh.  I don't really think I have the power to order anything.  :D  That was just a suggestion for "best shot at getting it to be official."

You're a big-wig dude, minor shifts in your eyebrows affect the decisions of Kings. :D

I don't have a sense of Krieg.  Part of that is that I'm not very good with IG background info but I think the dizzying variety of units in the list, combined with a wide range of formation types is part of the issue as well.

Barring the Leman Russes, there's actually a fair bit less flexibility in the current list, and with the new changes in mind I expect it to firm up a bit more.

In essence I do admit I made the mistake of representing several types of Death Korps army types all in one list.

Hopefully I can rectify this a little.

It's possible that the list may play substantially differently than the core IG list.  I obviously haven't played it.  My opinion is based solely on how it looks on paper, but on paper it looks like it just maps over the Steel Legion list with Krieg gear, meaning it would work pretty much the same as a basic IG force as far as play experience.

Well, I never really set out to limit the list too much. I wanted to allow people to build any 'Krieg' army list they wanted, not a Krieg 'Infantry' or Krieg 'Mechanised' list.

So it's time to split them.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:02 am 
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Snipers are appropriate for any infantry type formation ... :)




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:56 am 
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E&C:  I'm just trying to get a handle on the list concept.

Just as an example, if you intend it to be a siege-breaker force I would expect to see infantry with a little better assault and more AP fire compared to an IG list.  I'd expect to see Baneblades and Stormhammers for SHTs and assault-oriented Russ variants.  The shorter range Plasma variant of the Shadowsword (Stormsword? - I can't ever seem to keep SHTs straight without looking them up) would make sense for hitting heavy stuff.  The Medusa formation fits perfectly in the role of short range fortification hammer.  Obviously, some Ignore Cover weapons are a necessity as well.  Fragile units should probably be limited because everything should expect intense fighting.  OTOH, static artillery doesn't seem to fit a trench-storming force to me.  I would think for a WWI style siege-breaker force that their job doesn't really start until after the massed arty gets done.

Again, just an example.  Take it in the direction you want.

Once you get the concept down, I think choices of what to include or exclude will become much more clear.

I also think that a concept could help trim some of the variants out.  A list with a hodgepodge of weapons should be abstracted out.  The Ork list is a good example of this.  In 40K you can mount all kinds of different offensive and defense kit on trukks and buggies and wagons but in Epic, that goes to a single stat line representing the average of all those variants.  With a focus you can pick an appropriate set of variants to use.  For an IG parallel, a Steel Legion Russ Company may very well include the occasional Conqueror or whatever but the effect is considered to be minor enough not to matter.  They are subsumed into the generic Russ stat line and only the command tank and the assault variant (Demolisher) are given different stats.  That sort of approach allows flavor without a lot of fiddliness.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:12 am 
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The problem I'm having with the list is simple; The Death Korps have such a pronounced dichotomy of technology, and we've yet to see the exact composition of a 'normal' Death Korps army (As opposed to an Armoured Regiment), that I'm left making a list for a Death Korps army which will include this (A Heavy (2DC) MBT):






But which will also include this:






The variance in technology there is just as pronounced as (if not more than) the Steel Legion list.


Thus until we know any better, it really does look like the Death Korps will have a very large array of units available (Plenty more than a Codex IG list).

I may try to prod Mr. Kinrade on a getting a few extra details of what will be available to the Death Korps, but for now I've mostly been going on what's publically available.


When you get right down to it, the Death Korps Imperial Armour book isn't even written yet (Hardly started, in fact), so there's plenty of guesswork going on at the moment.



There is of course one thing I've been avoiding in the DKoK list: Trenchworks.


The Death Korps make use of Siegeworks... ForgeWorld will be releasing 40k-scale Siegeworks models... but if I give the Epic Death Korps Siegeworks as good as those the Barran SiegeMasters have, and as cheap as the Siegemasters have... well, they'll be 100% unbeatable. :)

Anyways, I've cut the 1.6 list back by a good third so far (Russ types cut to 6, Chimera types cut to 1, FW aircraft & Titans gone, etc), with some more rejigging to come.


Oh and here's the by-product of the DKoK v1.6, a quick and dirty Armoured Company list: Armoured Regiment V1.0




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