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Getting things moving again
nealhunt
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:50 pm 
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Neal, you've mentioned several times that ForgeWorld lie about production schedules, when did this happen and what models were involved? It's obviously quite a while back now, before I've been keeping tabs on their output anyway (Pre IA-3 too).


They were asked specifically if they were working on the chaos fighter model when we were testing the Black Legion list.  We were told that it was on the design board but it was a very long way off and there was no set design concept, let alone a production schedule so we decided not to include stats for it (couldn't really - no clue what to even arm it with).  A few months later the model is released about 2 weeks before the BL deadline.  The timeline was WAY too short for them not to have known not only that it was in production but an approximate release date as well.

As far as Tau, JimmyGrill approached them at least twice while IA3 was being worked on to express a desire to coordinate with them.  If I'm not mistaken he had Jervis vouch for him as an introduction.  There is no doubt that FW is intimately aware of the design process Epic is using.  They rebuffed JG in no uncertain terms.  It's obvious from the list that they came up with that they have no one on staff with a solid understanding of how EA works and didn't bother to solicit opinions.

When he tried to encourage cooperation Jervis himself was told explicitly that FW was independent and was not obligated to coordinate any production efforts.

Even what you've reported - they aren't going to make any new Epic stuff unless it's one of their 40K models - implies that they have no desire to even take EA design into account at all.

Contrast that with GW proper where Jervis is welcome at design committee meetings.  GW has been quite willing to send out preview copies of 40K codeces for lists under development (Tau and Eldar), take into account EA designs in concept meetings of the 40K staff (like WEs for Tau and Necron) and even share information from those concept meetings for EA to use.

Maybe it's just the EA design process FW is wary of but I really don't care.  The bottom line is they've made it clear they want nothing to do with Epic design.

====

"Canon" is correct in this context.

Canon: a rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy

Cannon: a large artillery gun that is usually on wheels

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:01 pm 
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A few months later the model is released


Playing devil's advocate, that's quite a possible timeframe for them to take the model from inception to production, the lead time for low production-volume models is incredibly short (A matter of weeks). They may well have meant what they said when they said it.

Heck, I was once told by their chief sales manager that there was no chance they'd ever make the Slann Mage-Priest I wanted... which is now sitting in my army case...

It's obvious from the list that they came up with that they have no one on staff with a solid understanding of how EA works and didn't bother to solicit opinions.

I can actually confirm that the guy who writes rules for them (Tony Cottrell) doesn't play Epic: Armageddon, he still plays Epic under SM1/2 rules, and so yes, he doesn't have a clue. :)

they aren't going to make any new Epic stuff unless it's one of their 40K models

That's been their official policy for quite a while now, with a few minor exceptions.

Maybe it's just the EA design process FW is wary of...

I can also agree on this one... FW is in love with in-house rules development and is extremely cagey on letting the rules run free (It took me months to start getting specifics on how the air-war game was going to operate, and I keep pretty close tabs on them).



Overall, Epic hasn't had an easy ride with ForgeWorld... but on the other hand, the 40k rules & background are fully vetted by the design studio... they can't release a model, or background for that model, without getting design studio approval first.

In summation, that means that the Tau armylist fluff for the specialist-usage Hammerheads is backwards. :)

Re: Canon/Cannon

Heh, I've been wrong on that one for years. :D




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 30 2006,21:01)
QUOTE
A few months later the model is released


Playing devil's advocate, that's quite a possible timeframe for them to take the model from inception to production, the lead time for low production-volume models is incredibly short (A matter of weeks). They may well have meant what they said when they said it.

Hmm... I admit I'm not up on the details of production for resin casts.  If that's true it is possible that it wasn't intentional.  Given their track record on other stuff my interpretation still seems likely, though.

As for the background for the appendix models, I don't have a dog in that fight.  I was just grinding my axe with FW.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:12 am 
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As a recent example, there was an incomplete WIP model of a Nurgle Greater Daemon on display at GamesDay UK this year. A week later the model was listed on the pre-orders section of the website, with pictures of a fully complete resin cast of the model. The two weeks of pre-order time were then used to build up a backlog of castings and then the model was released.

So yeah, ForgeWorld will always have models out of the door faster than any other branch of GW (Where lead time is many (Often 6-ish) months, instead of a few weeks).

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Xisor
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:28 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 30 2006,16:59)
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There damn well is, if you'll pardon the forwardness.

If SG, and the studio itself, feel that the SG Epic Lists version of events is better than the IA one, they'll go with that. They've done it with the list itself already, haven't they?


What (official) list directly contradicts the background in such a manner? I know there are some quibbles as to missile ranges and whether Ion Cannons should keep their AA... but direct (and knowing) contradiction with W:40k?

It wasn't WH:40k I was referring to by 'Studio', rather it was the 'larger studio team' than those who do *any* work on specific SG (or FW[or indeed BL/BIP]) projects. That is to say: SG, currently, has published material that on numerous accounts states, indicates and accounts for Tau "Water Caste Scientists", this is blatantly never the case (nor the caste). Fio/Earth are the Scientists.

Okay, this is an example of a mistake, but we'll stick with it.

What is the prevailing 'authority' on how Tau travel in the Warp?

BFG Armada cites that they never properly enter the warp, rather using a very intricate method of bouncing off the barrier between warpspace and realspace.

The Tau Empire codex [4th ed] and the Tau codex [3rd ed] *and* the Killteam novel all state that the Tau do enter the warp, but use pre-calculated 'skim' jumps that 'just' enter the warp, then drop out again (much in the same manner as Imperial ships that jump with no Navigators).

But which one is canon? Well, both. GW canon is anything that is published by GW or a subsidiary, hence why GW has little to no fluff continuity.

In fact, I do believe, the 'Tau Warp/Not-Warp' travel is the biggest and most obvious one of all. It highlights that GW simply isn't a very united entity.

Secondly: FW does lovely models and stories (eg: IA3), but horrible rules (IA3 Epic & BFG).

As to why 'giving acknowledgement' is important: It's fraudulent to claim someone else's idea as your own. Copyright or not, you're still lying. And ignorant omission, as everyone who's ever wrote an essay to be graded, is an equally viable form of plagarism as any other: ie it is treated as intenitonal and punishable.

I don't see why GW should be exempt from this. Largely, however, many articles do thank their contributors, certainly in the BFG/Inquisitor side of things, when they have been from collaborations or inspirations.

If only GW adopted a rigorous 'science-esque' peer review setup not only to check validity, but to ensure proper referecing and acknowledgements...

Xisor

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:19 am 
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Satan would be running a hockey team, and the Wicked Witch of the West's monkeys would come out of retirement long before that happened, Xisor.

As long as you're dreaming, would you like a Lamborghini?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:26 am 
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A lot of good stuff here ... But IMO, bottomline, I don't see much Epic coming out of F/W  or G/W ... save for more planes for the F/W "Epic scale but not Epic rules" game ... :)

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