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Epic-compatible version of AT
Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:28 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 22 2006,09:26)
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Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest in splitting fire from titans?

Sometimes it seems like a waste of firepower to dump it all on one formation, especially if the Titan has a mix of AT and AP weapons, but the target formation only has one type of target.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:56 pm 
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*bump* for further discussion.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:46 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 25 2006,18:56)
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*bump* for further discussion.

OK, here we go:

Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest in splitting fire from titans?


Neal, you are rather laconic here. ?:)

Do you think that allowing Titans to split fire would be inappropriate? Too powerful, perhaps? Or perhaps you think that if we allow Titans to split fire people will wonder why "normal" formations can't?

I'm personally against regular formations splitting fire, but I think that Titans could be considered as legitimate candidates for splitting fire.

Going back to your first post, you said:

I think the EA system for dealing with WEs is decent and if the rules are to be compatable we have to stick with them as a base.

I think detailed construction rules are really a no-brainer. ?You simply have to have them in a titan-focused game. ?I think that the fire arcs presented in the core book are probably fine but adding some would be very easy.

Same for detailed damage. ?It's a must-have. ?With detailed damage rules, titans will degrade as they take damage whereas under the EA rules they retain full abilities until dead. ?To keep point values roughly the same, it seems that balance could theoretically be achieved by making titans tougher to destroy outright. ?In other words, even though they lose capability sooner they can keep going longer.

I totally agree with you on every point... and this is why I think your "actions/partial actions" system might be unnecessary (that, and I find it rather complicated, I'm not sure I understood it very well). EA's activation and actions system works fine, why not use it?

If we consider that activations and actions should stay the same, that leaves us with:

- detailed construction rules
- detailed damage table

For construction rules, the AMTL list could be used as a guide. It seems to work fine, although some players seem to favor giving each weapon a different cost.

As for detailed damage: I've done some thinking (and it hurts ?:p ) and I'm not sure a damage table really fits in with the EA "feel", i.e. you shouldn't have to bring a pen and paper with you to follow what's going on with your Titan(s), dice and markers should be enough.

Here's an attempt at keeping things simple:

- Keep the current DC system ;
- No "damage table" BUT ;
- For each DC lost, the Titan must reduce its speed by 5cm OR may not use one of its weapon systems (the player must announce its choice(s) before the activation).

The system is (I think) very simple to implement (as it relies on lost DC), yet you get the "progressive deterioration" effect. This deterioration could be explained as the Titan losing "reactor power" and having to choose where to allocate the remaining power.

Example: A Reaver with 4 DC lost will either have to reduce its speed by 20 cm OR not fire at all (it has 3 weapon systems) OR anything in between (like lose 10 cm and only fire 2 weapon systems).

For big War Engines, we could modify the system to say that they only degrade for every 2 DC lost.

Note that this would severely reduce a Titan's resilience, hence the proposal of allowing Titans to split fire in order to compensate for this.

What do you guys think?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Here's an attempt at keeping things simple:


Too simple IMHO.

The hallmark of Epic's AT games has been the interesting Damage tables.


In all honesty, I think a combination of Reaver's damage tables & the modular weapons list would actually make a very solid starting point for an Epic-compatible AT.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:17 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Nov. 26 2006,16:46)
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Neal, you are rather laconic here.  :)

Do you think that allowing Titans to split fire would be inappropriate? Too powerful, perhaps? Or perhaps you think that if we allow Titans to split fire people will wonder why "normal" formations can't?

Fair enough.

I think splitting fire is unnecessary.

Even against fairly fragile formations I find it rare that a titan "wastes" firepower.  Overall, I'd say a Leman Russ company is vastly more likely to waste firepower due to overkill than any titan.  The only situation in which I can grant that it is a waste would be TK weapons directed against light targets.  With a design-your-own system that becomes a poor design choice as far as I'm concerned.

Because of the "BM for coming under fire" bit, I think splitting fire gets to be quite powerful.  You can take that off, but then you violate a very basic core concept of the game.

So, splitting fire gains nothing in practical terms and lose a bit in simplicity of play due to consistency.

As far as degrading titan abilities over time I think Reaver's system is quite flavorful and interesting even though it is intensive with respect to bookkeeping.  I can deal with splitting fire as a balancing factor to the increased degradation of that system.

Taking some sort of hit for every DC is not going to work.  It's too punitive and makes the titans dramatically more fragile.  Even a Warlord titan would be nearly useless at half DC, not even beginning to consider something like a Great Gargant with  amuch higher DC-to-capability ratio.

===

In any case, it seems most people don't really want a stand-alone AT game that is also EA compatable.  They just want a detailed AMTL list, possibly with an alternate titan damage system.

I'm fine with that, which is why I haven't put any effort into refining the ideas I originally posted.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:18 pm 
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So, splitting fire gains nothing in practical terms and lose a bit in simplicity of play due to consistency.

As far as degrading titan abilities over time I think Reaver's system is quite flavorful and interesting even though it is intensive with respect to bookkeeping.  I can deal with splitting fire as a balancing factor to the increased degradation of that system.


Apart from the self-contradiction here, I agree totally. :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:36 pm 
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I think a separate AT game has it's advantages, but -with that said- it seems like an awfully big job.

The biggest problem that I think people have with the AMTL list right now is that it doesn't allow for fielding Imperator Titans.  People get locked in this mode where the list has to be played between 3000-5000 points and that is the end of it.  This ends up making the Imperator Titan engineered to be weaker than it should be.

As for split firing, it really is a tremendous advantage over all non-titan formations and difficult to fit into EA.  If it were to be allowed, however, I say it should be allowed for the very largest of the large (Mega Gargants and Imperator Titans).  Make a rule that you can target 1 formations for every 8 DC.   :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:04 pm 
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The biggest problem I have with the AMTL 2.0 list is that taking its Titans in other Imperial Armies (As is the normal intention with an AT-type rules mod) is completely unbalanced.

Which is why I started the modular points project (See my sig). :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:09 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 27 2006,17:18)
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So, splitting fire gains nothing in practical terms and lose a bit in simplicity of play due to consistency.

As far as degrading titan abilities over time I think Reaver's system is quite flavorful and interesting even though it is intensive with respect to bookkeeping.  I can deal with splitting fire as a balancing factor to the increased degradation of that system.


Apart from the self-contradiction here, I agree totally. :)

Heh.  I said I could deal with it as a trade-off, not that I thought it was a good idea.  :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic-compatible version of AT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:14 pm 
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I think the only other easy alternative to allowing splitting of fire is to raise the DC of every Titan using damage tables.

The tendancy to degrade in capability over the course of the game is pronounced... so they need some sort of bonus to go along with the downside. Either:

- Split fire.
- Raise DC.
- Drop points.

Any other viable / elegant alternatives?



EDIT: I will mention that while at first glance it is bookkeeping-intensive, during gameplay Reaver's system works very well and I've never found it hard to remember what damage has been applied to what titan in standard sized games.




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