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Space Wolves
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:58 am 
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Ah, excellent!

Thanks, Gary.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:32 am 
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I would give the Long Fangs 2x missile launcher and 2x something else... lascannon probably, possibly plasma cannon (although they require bookkeeping)

4x missile launcher seems a bit bland.

As for the Mjolnir, I have no issue with a new unit per se, but a non-war engine with a gun that big doesn't seem right (considering it is very similar to the one mounted on a DC3 shadowsword!). It also doesn't fit with the idea of the Land Raider which is an assault tank, and the variant LRs still retain that to some degree (especially the Crusader!).

I still think you could justifiably put in some super-heavy tanks like the Shadowsword or the one with the plasma destructor (the name escapes me). The Wolves get Leman Russ after all (for obvious reasons), so an IG type superheavy tank seems okay.

Or as I said before, make the Scouts damn good against War Engines so the Wolves don't need any prissy long-ranged gun thing. Anybody would think you're trying to avoid a good scrap, using something like that.
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gary_clark1946
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:07 am 
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2 msl Lnchr and 2 something else?
I could see that but it is simpler to keep it as one type.
It could actually be 5 all different weapons.

the Mjolnir... I still say it is more in character than having some IG super heavy tank "snooping" around.
As for the Land Raider, In this case it is just a LR chassi not really a tank at all.  Look at all the varriants for a Rhino... everything from a transport to a main battle tanl. You would need something heavy to mount a weapon like that. I do think it would have less armour protection and maybe even slower.
You have a giant weapon sitting on top of a big heavy mobile box. I doubt if it would every make it into officialdom but as a fan vehilce, I think it is great. I could see an argument for lowering the stats of the weapon as it is basicly a juryrigged system though. I know the wolves like to get in close but I don't think they are so stupid not to use a long range prissy gun thing when it came to going against a Titan.

I like your suggestion (or were you joking) about the scouts being bad enough to take out a Titan. Not to powerful but just  the posibility. It was discussed a year or so ago about some type of device delivered in close combat (I think it was for Assault Marines though). That might fit the Space Wolf Scouts. They are specialist not SMs in training as in other chapters.  They are more like Terminator veterans with out the armour and able to get close and nasty. I need to go back and look to see if there is anything in the available weapons that could hurt a Titan. ...even something like a man-portable nuke demolition. (we had them back in the 60's)

Do IG still have mole mortars? SMs used to have them. If I remember correctly they could cause problems for Titans by exploding under them

wolf1

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gary_clark1946
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:57 pm 
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Here is an example of comparing the Codexes and test values for Grey Hunters

SW Codex
Grey Hunters: [6-10 men]
INF / 15cm / 4+ / 3+ / 4+
CC wpn & (Bolt Pistols or Bolters)
>2 Plasma pistols
>1 Flamer / Meltagun / Plasma gun
>2 Pwrwpn / Powerfist

Test
Grey Hunters: [6-10 men] ? ?
INF / 15cm / 4+ / 3+ / 4+
Bolters 15cm small arms
Plasma Gun 15cm AP5+/AT5+
Chainswords

SM Codex
Tactical [5-10 men] ? ? ?50pts w/Rhino
Inf / 15cm / 4+ /4+ / 4+
Bolters
>1x Msl Lnchr / Hvy Bltr / Lascannon
>1x Flamer / Meltagun / Plasmagun

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Flogus
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:21 pm 
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Grey Hunters profile is fine.

But Long Fangs prodile is not ! for a +50pts over Codex Devastators, they gain Fearless ! double their firepower ! and upgrade from FF3+ to FF2+. Something is wrong ...
If you really want 4 heavy weapons, consider 2 lascan + 2 heavy bolters, and reconsider the cost of the formation.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Mjolnir: the gun's still just too big to feel comfortable having it on a non-War Engine. It is essentially a volcano cannon, which is mounted on battle titans and on the shadowsword, which has to sacrifice most of the weapons on a baneblade to mount the volcano cannon. But the Space Wolves have managed to stick one on a LR?

Besides, if it's so good, why aren't the other SM chapters using it? The Annihilator pattern was copied by virtually all Chapters within a century.

My point about actually using shadowswords was that there is a precident for Space Wolves using Imperial Guard tanks - the Leman Russ Exterminator. It isn't such a massive leap to think they might use non-SM super-heavies (but crewed with Space Wolves) to fill that gap.

Long Fangs:
I quite like the idea of Fearless - it fits quite well. As for weaponry, I think two pairs of heavy weapons is the best bet: four all the same is boring, more than two sets of weapons clutters the datafax. I'd suggest 2x missile launchers (got the models for them!) and 2x lascannon or 2x heavy bolters or 2x plasma cannon. Lascannon would get my vote.

Scouts: no, I wasn't joking. I think it fits the Space Wolf ethos completely to deal with Gargants and Titans by sneaking up and covering their legs with meltabombs...
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:45 am 
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Forget the grenade-sized melta-bombs, I'm talking about big demolition charges (or the really big cyclotronic demo charges, better known as ADMs)!

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Re: Long Fangs

2x LasC, 2x Heavy Bolters is better against armor than 2x Missile Launchers, and worse against infantry.  Missile Launchers are 45cm AP5+/AT6+, while Lascannons are 45cm AT5+ and Heavy Bolters are 30cm AP5+.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:30 am 
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Bah, never mind demo charges... they should have grappling hooks, really strong rope and run around and around the titans until the machines get tangled and fall over...!
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:58 pm 
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Originally the gun on the Mjolnir was Slow-Firing. That got dropped at some point (I don't remember if it was in one of the prior versions here or pre-posting...) due to concerns that it wouldn't be good enough to make up for the total lack of super-heavy units (Other then aircraft) in the list. Though I'd be open to dropping it to 60cm and giving it Slow-Firing if people think it'd fit better.

The Leman Russ Exterminator grows from the fact that the Leman Russ is named after, well, Leman Russ. The Wolves are provided and allowed to man a number of such tanks in memory of their Primarch. I wouldn't be directly against the idea of giving them access to something like individual Shadowswords (A single Shadowsword as a formation. Maybe 0-1 or something?) The Mjolnir is probably better then it should be right now. Mostly due to my reflexive feeling that 3 tanks with slow-firing weapons felt under-powered.
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Mohawk
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:14 pm 
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hmm.. just posted this alternative Mjolnir on SG forum (on request).

Re: Mjolnir
It has to be relatively easy to make as a GW produced model for it seems like an utopia.

Perhaps make it a tandem-LR? (as the vehicle here: http://www.soldf.com/bv206.html)
First carrige (1st LR) mounts a titan class Melta Cannon and the second carrige (2nd LR - rotated 180 perhaps) mounts the powerplant to power the cannon.

Make it a WE DC2 - this lets its use the Melta Cannon even if CCed and give it a bit more survivability.

Why?

This will fit the SW more aggressive nature, it will make it a rather unique unit and it will be pretty powerful but more challenging to use.

WE / 25cm / 4+ / 6+ / 4+
2 x Twin Lascannon / 45cm / AT4+ / Right Fire Arc
2 x Twin Lascannon / 45cm / AT4+ / Left Fire Arc
2 x Heavy Bolter / 30cm / AP4+
Melta Cannon / 30cm / 2 x MW3+
AND
(15cm) Small Arms Extra Attacks (+2) TK(d3)

Notes: RA, TRA, DC2
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gary_clark1946
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:24 pm 
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(Mohawk @ Nov. 11 2006,14:14)
QUOTE
hmm.. just posted this alternative Mjolnir on SG forum (on request).

Re: Mjolnir
It has to be relatively easy to make as a GW produced model for it seems like an utopia.

Perhaps make it a tandem-LR? (as the vehicle here: http://www.soldf.com/bv206.html)
First carrige (1st LR) mounts a titan class Melta Cannon and the second carrige (2nd LR - rotated 180 perhaps) mounts the powerplant to power the cannon.

Make it a WE DC2 - this lets its use the Melta Cannon even if CCed and give it a bit more survivability.

Why?

This will fit the SW more aggressive nature, it will make it a rather unique unit and it will be pretty powerful but more challenging to use.

WE / 25cm / 4+ / 6+ / 4+
2 x Twin Lascannon / 45cm / AT4+ / Right Fire Arc
2 x Twin Lascannon / 45cm / AT4+ / Left Fire Arc
2 x Heavy Bolter / 30cm / AP4+
Melta Cannon / 30cm / 2 x MW3+
AND
(15cm) Small Arms Extra Attacks (+2) TK(d3)

Notes: RA, TRA, DC2

I like the tandum idea. I was considering some such idea last week.

I am not for the WE idea or shortening the range.

It is to be (IMHO) a jury rig system not a production model. Someone asked about other Chapters not having anything like it..... because they worship the Codex and if it isn't there it is Heresy. The Wolves have a much lighter and open view.

The two vehicles (one with the weapon and one for the power plant) ends the idea of size. ?How to make it work in game terms is another story all together. May even think of an extra power plant in case one is lost.  Maybe a 4 unit formation consisting of the weapon, 2x power plants and maybe a Land Raider (or something) with a Hunter upgrade. Just some thoughts.

I just don't like the Idea of using IG super Heavy tanks. The Leman Russ is an exception but I would prefer even it to be rare.

When it is worked out, might I suggest it be listed as an option to be used in non tournament games. I am not sure but some of the special things for the Wolves may have to be treated that way.

Gary

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:41 pm 
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I'm not that hot on spacewolf background and rules, but ti does seem that their squads carry an excessive amount of power weapons.  So what about allowing upto half of blood claw units in a formation and upto half of the greyhunter units in a formation to upgrade to have power weapons on their profile.  Which will give either +1 CC MW attack or make their basic attack MW.  

This should help them take out titans without having to make a new unit

Coupled with this what about a special rule that makes SW fearless when fighting WEs.  I know it looks strange them being able (if that is the right word) to be torn apart by grots, but refuse to die fighting Dies Irae.

Yet to me it seems to fit their mentality.  They will give that little bit more fighting such a monster, just so they can brag about it back at the fang

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consectari
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:55 pm 
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Can't read German, but this thing looks like it could be TK.  Everything in Lexicanum is "supposed" to be from official sources, but no idea where they got this.  Horus Heresy Books maybe?

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