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Up the cost of Orca, please

 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:44 pm 
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100 points is too low, for the following reasons:

1) It makes for cheap activations.

2) It's too low for the utility of the thing. Other transport aircraft cost 200 points, which is so much that you need to have a reason to use them. In the Tau list, the Orca is pretty much a no-brainer if you use Broadsides or for air assault forces based on Kroot or FW.

I propose upping Orca cost to 150 points.


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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Well, let's look at the comparable transport aircraft:  Eldar Vampire Raider and Marine Thunderhawk.

Vampire Raider (200 points)
WE-Aircraft, Bomber, 5+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
2x Vampire Pulse Laser:  45cm AT4+ Pulse, Fixed Forward Arc
Scatter Laser:  30cm AP5+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Notes:  Damage Capacity 2. Planetfall. Reinforced Armour. May transport eight of the following units: Autarch, Farseer, Guardian, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers, Heavy Weapon Platform, Support Weapon Platform, Wraithguard, Rangers.
Critical Hit Effect: The Vampire?s control surfaces have been damaged and it is destroyed.


Thunderhawk (200 points)
WE-Aircraft, Bomber, 4+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
Battle Cannon:  75cm AP4+/AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc
2x Twin Heavy Bolters:  30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
1x Twin Heavy Bolter:  15cm AP4+AA5+ Right Arc
1x Twin Heavy Bolter:  15cm AP4+AA5+ Left Arc

DC2, Critical=boom.  

Notes: Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Transport (may carry eight of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Assault, Devastator , Scout, Bike, Terminator or Dreadnought units. Terminators and Dreadnoughts take up two spaces each.)

They both transport 8 stands of pretty much any non-vehicle unit in the army.  They both carry a good array of weapons and decent armor, as they're intended to go into harm's way.

Now, let's look at the Orca:  
Orca Dropship (100 points)
War Engine Aircraft, Bomber, 4+sv, 6+cc, 6+ff
Twin-linked Burst Cannon:  15cm AP4+/AA6+
Twin-linked Missile Pods:  45cm AP4+/AT4+ Forward Arc
Aircraft Seeker Missiles:  45cm AT6+ Guided Missiles

Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The Orca?s control surfaces are damaged. The pilot loses control and the Orca crashes to the ground. The Orca and all models on board are destroyed.

Notes: Planetfall, Transport (may carry up to ten of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth, Gun Drones, Heavy Drones, Kroot Carnivore Squads, Crisis, Broadsides; Crisis and Broadsides take up two spaces each)  

Orcas come out of the 1/3 Air/War Engine support points, as does the Vampire.  Thunderhawks (and Landing Craft) come out of regular army points.  Eldar and Marines use Air Assaults to combat drop into engagements.  The Tau largely use the Orca to deliver broadsides to firing points (a much less effective attack method than simply engaging), or to drop large numbers of Kroot and/or Fire Warriors into combat.  I've never used Orcas to Air Assault troops, I use them to deploy Broadsides.  I'm not convinced that Air Assaulting Kroot or Fire Warriors is an effective means of using them.  What's everyone else's experience been?

As regards your first note, cheap activations, Orcas are competing with Morays, Barracudas, and both Tiger Shark variants for space.  I certainly make sure that I have my air cover before I add transports to the list.  In a typical 'Tournament' game of 2700 points, that's 900 points of support max.  Now, I always take at least one formation of Barracudas, so there's 650 points left (=6 Orcas, with some left over).  That still leaves some serious weakness in the list, so I usually take a couple Tigersharks.  There's 350 left.  Take an AX10 for Superheavy/Titan-busting, and there's just enough points left for the one Orca my Broadsides need, with 25 points left.  Alternately, replace the AX10 with a Hero and Tracer salvo.

Maybe that's a problem in larger games, but I don't see the activation problem happening in 3k (+/-500 points) games.  It could also be that I play Tau very differently than you do, so I just don't see why someone would build an army that way (IMO, if you want to air assault like that, play panzee Eldar or Beakee Marines, not Tau).

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:34 am 
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The cost of the Orca is something that comes up every now and again - with some saying that it is too cheap and others saying that it is too expensive (and others bemoaning the third turn drop and hold). I cant seem to find the thread that I remember best, but another one is here:

Orca; love it, hate it or dont use it

I agree that, on paper, the 100 points seems cheap for this aircraft, but battle results seem to indicate that it is about right - for example I dont see players over-using the beast.

I am happy to hear further conversation on it, though.

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:07 pm 
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Hi!
The only potential abuse I could ( and that was discussed before ), was an army that fields a lot of empty orcas as cheap activation and objective grabbers.

It might be a problem, and a rule limiting the number of orca to the number of formations that can be carried was suggested.

The fact that transport aircraft can grab objective is currently discussed on the SG board. I would suggest that we wait for the new rules before modifying anything


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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:26 am 
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Agreed.  If the folks at SG decide that aircraft can't hold objectives (which sounds like a reasonable decision, IMO), then I can't really see how large numbers of (empty) Orcas would be desirable in Epic.

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:35 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 20 2006,07:26)
QUOTE
then I can't really see how large numbers of (empty) Orcas would be desirable in Epic.

Or even smart... the objective grab is a tactic any army can use. You have to expect it and deal with it not hamstring a formation to counter it.

Also, the argument for "cheap activation" is a little bland IMO. Does anyone argue the 100 point IG Sentinel formation is a cheap activation? I doubt it. OK Sentinels are ground based but they get scout and a decent move as it is. 100 points is a fair chunk of points for a Tau list given the cost of their equipment. I have big trouble putting a 50 point unit into my army list if I have spare points. Anyone building their army around a mass of Orcas is asking to lose most battles.


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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:15 pm 
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(Dobbsy @ Oct. 23 2006,00:35)
QUOTE
Also, the argument for "cheap activation" is a little bland IMO. Does anyone argue the 100 point IG Sentinel formation is a cheap activation? I doubt it. OK Sentinels are ground based but they get scout and a decent move as it is. 100 points is a fair chunk of points for a Tau list given the cost of their equipment. I have big trouble putting a 50 point unit into my army list if I have spare points. Anyone building their army around a mass of Orcas is asking to lose most battles.

Bad comparison. Sentinels have two costs: they take up a support formation slot and they cost 100 points. Orcas only cost 100 points and are limited by the 1/3 points limit. Abusing Orcas to get a high number of activations is easier than abusing Sentinels.

---

If everyone feels that the Orca+Broadside combo is the best use for Orca, would 250 for BS and 150 for Orca work as well as the current 300+100 cost structure? This would keep things as they are for most people and still limit the abuses I think I see.


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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:57 am 
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Ok, but how effective are they? If I take 9 Orcas what can I do with them given the new rules will mean they can't hold objectives?

What do I lose out on if I spend my 900(1/3) on Orcas? Support craft? Proper strike aircraft? Yes to both if I'm playing 2700 point battles. Seriously, IMO a smart player wouldn't be doing this if he really wants to win a game.

But look, if we're all that worried about this maybe we could tie the Orca to a unit for purchase. e.g You can only buy them as a transport for certain formations. Or something to that effect.

It's not that nice a way to do it but if this is happening worldwide and it's a huge problem maybe it's something to look at then. Till then, well I personally think the orca is just fine as it is.

Time will tell I guess.






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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:08 am 
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If it's needed, I'd support shifting Orcas to a formation upgrade in addition to coming out of the 1/3 support section.  Let's see:  Fire Warriors, Crisis suits, Broadsides, Pathfinders, and Stealth suits, off the top of my head.

Right now it does not appear to be needed, however.

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:22 am 
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(asaura @ Oct. 23 2006,14:15)
QUOTE
Bad comparison. Sentinels have two costs: they take up a support formation slot and they cost 100 points. Orcas only cost 100 points and are limited by the 1/3 points limit. Abusing Orcas to get a high number of activations is easier than abusing Sentinels.

---

If everyone feels that the Orca+Broadside combo is the best use for Orca, would 250 for BS and 150 for Orca work as well as the current 300+100 cost structure? This would keep things as they are for most people and still limit the abuses I think I see.

This is only partially true. While the Orcas and the Sentinels are the same cost, taking points out of the 1/3 aircraft allocation may be seen as worse for some players, since it eats points spend on units which are more useful than an empty Orca.

I would also hesitate to make changes to the cost of the Broadsides based on a perception of the value of the Orca. Reducing the cost of the BS may result in more 'lonely' formations operating alone.

I must admit that I remain unconcvinced that we are actually seeing a large number of Tau forces with empty, objective grabbing Orca units. Personally, I would rather take a couple of TigerShark and clear an objective, rather than three relatively weaker Orca.

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:05 pm 
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The exact changes to aircraft objective grabs are far from determined at this point.

I favor the "not in the same turn it lands" and Greg favors leaving it as-is primarily due to the perception that it nerfs SM players.  I'm not sure what Sotec's opinion is other than I know he favors some level of limitation.

I don't think Orcas can be adjusted until it is settled.

I have absolutely no reservation in stating that I think it's abusive as-is.  9 air activations for 900 points is obscene.  They can't be broken so even after taking into account BMs (failed activations) and shot down aircraft, you're still looking at something on the order of ~6 near-guaranteed activations per turn and more than that for stalling purposes (failed activations allow you to "pass" on activating).  The BMs alone that they can generate is a large factor before you get to objective grabs.  That's fine for 900 points but the objective grab is the big unknown factor at this point.

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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:40 am 
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Well personally I think the objective grab is a non-event. The game is entirely based on objective grabbing - no matter how you do it. It seems silly to me that people get annoyed by it when it's a well known tactic. You need to plan for it - simple as that. I'd be interested to see how ~6 Orcas sitting on the blitz will stand up to an intermingled assault....


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 Post subject: Up the cost of Orca, please
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:41 am 
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How would you assault the Orcas?  The Orcas would be guaranteed to be able to activate after the enemy is done for the turn.

Aircraft objective grabs are vastly more difficult to defend against than grabs by ground forces due to unlimited movement, the ability to ignore intervening units, and a much smaller window of vulnerability for counterattacks.

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