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Marine Chapter's Armory

 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:39 pm 
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While I was writing up a rough guide for building the Dark Angels Chapter (or any other chapter in E:A, for that matter), I started thinking about how much stuff a Chapter really has.  I was really surprised to learn how armor-light the USMC typically are, and I started debating whether Astartes would follow the USMC armor pattern, or if they'd follow the pattern of an armored cavalry regiment.

Now, the First Company should have 16-20 Land Raiders permanently assigned to it, so I'm going to mostly ignore them.

According to IA2:
There's at least 16-20 additional Land Raiders in the armory.  There's also 30-odd Predators, 16 Whirlwinds (including Hunters), and 12-16 Vindicators.  

Now, would the Predators and Land Raiders be together in the same battalion, or would there be a battalion of Land Raiders and a battalion of predators?  This would actually only increase the number of Land Raiders and Predators by 16-20 each, as there's already 2 companies of each present.

Also, the artillery support seems really light.  A company of close-support 'mortars' and a company of assault guns for a Regiment?  I would expect to see more along the lines of 2 companies of Whirlwinds, a company of Hunter SPAA, a Company of Vindicators, and (waaaaay in the back of the armory) maybe a company of Saber tank destroyers (they aren't real popular anymore, especially since they're hide-shoot-&-scoot units instead of main battle tanks.  What marine really wants to ambush enemy armor at range?).

Also, a Saber is essentially a Vindicator with a battle cannon instead of the Demolisher cannon, right?

Between IA2 and the 3rd ed Marine codex, there are supposed to be 30-odd Thunderhawks (no mention of whether that number includes THawk Transports or not, but I assume not).  Adding enough THawk Transports and Landing Craft to drop the heavy equipment means 30-70 THawk Transports and about 20 Landing Craft.

Also, the question of a 'Marine Air Wing' came to mind.  While I do not believe that Astartes would even fit into the cockpit of many fighters, Marines still need some kind of air cover.  Let's face it, a Tunderhawk might be tough, but it's still not maneuverable enough to do everything.  I assume that, like the starship crews, any fighters would be crewed by chapter serfs or servitors.

Now, Marines don't need Marauder bombers, as Thunderhawks can carry about 3/4 of the bombload of a Marauder, and have much better survivability (according to IA2), but I can see a need for both Helo-analogs (Vulture Gunships) and fighters (probably Thunderbolts, as they're tougher and better equipped for ground attacks, but Landspeeder Tempests are also a possibility).

I assumed that there'd be 2 squadrons of Vultures, and a squadron or two of TBolts/Tempests

Then there's the fleet itself.
1-3 Battle Barges
10+ Strike Cruisers
and enough Escorts to either adequately patrol a sector of space (for the ground-based chapters) or to provide adequate screen for the fleet (for fleet-based chapters)

What do the old hands remember from SM1 or SM2?

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:26 pm 
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For my Salamanders Chapter i came up with something like this (modified from the 3rd Edition SM Codex):

Predators (8 Detachmends = 17 Destructor and 15 Anihilator), Vindicators (12), Whirlwinds (2 Detachmends = 8 Whirlwinds and 4 Hunter), Rhinos (6), Razorbacks (12 = 6 with twinlinked Lascannons and 6 with twinlinked Heavy Bolters), Land Raiders (12).

1st Company has 12 Land Raiders, 6 Rhinos and 6 Dreadnoughts
2nd, 3rd and 4th Company have 10 Rhinos and 6 Dreadnoughts

5th and 6th Company have 12 Rhinos and 3 Dreadnoughts

Remember that the Salamanders have 12 squads per company.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:42 pm 
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I don't remember reading anything that lists the exact number of vehicles per chapter. We know that fluff says that each chapter has about 1,000 Marines, but I'm not sure how many vehicles. I get the impression there are fewer vehicles per chapter in E:A than SM2 and, naturally, significantly fewer than SM1, since that takes place during the Horus Heresy, before chapters were reorganized and redcued in size.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:35 pm 
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I started debating whether Astartes would follow the USMC armor pattern, or if they'd follow the pattern of an armored cavalry regiment.


Neither. They are more analogous to air-cavalry with rapidly air-mobile armoured support.

Now, would the Predators and Land Raiders be together in the same battalion

Marines don't think in terms of battalions, regiments etc. There is only the Chapter.

Marines will choose the strike force appropriate to a particular mission, they have no fixed force-organizations once in-theatre.



Also, the question of a 'Marine Air Wing' came to mind.  While I do not believe that Astartes would even fit into the cockpit of many fighters, Marines still need some kind of air cover.  Let's face it, a Tunderhawk might be tough, but it's still not maneuverable enough to do everything.  I assume that, like the starship crews, any fighters would be crewed by chapter serfs or servitors.

There's no basis for Marines using fighter aircraft... Marines rely on Imperial Navy fighter support when they require air-to-air combat cover.




I can see a need for both Helo-analogs (Vulture Gunships) and fighters (probably Thunderbolts, as they're tougher and better equipped for ground attacks, but Landspeeder Tempests are also a possibility).

Marines don't use Vultures, or as I mentioned, fighters.



1-3 Battle Barges


Most Chapters have just 1 Battle Barge.




You're looking at Marine Chapters as being an autonomous warfighting organisation, wheras they are a more specialised fighting force. Marines are used for boarding actions and special missions on the ground, anything else is generally prohibited via the conventions adopted after the Horus Heresy (Before which the Imperial Army formations, Marine companies, Navy units etc were often all directly commanded by a single figure, most often a Marine or a Primarch)

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:42 pm 
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Having Chosen the Blood Ravens, a fleet based chapter, I pose no limits on the euipment that I field. As a fleet based chapter, they would own forge ships that can produce equipment to replace that which is lost in combat. And where required increase stock piles for specific campaigns,  I have been working on the principle that each company is essentially a 4500 - 6500 point strong force, with all the right tools to get the job done. Some companies are more expensive, ie 1st Company with its twenty LR, others like Reserve have less support. i have then grouped my Companies into Battle Groups based arround a Battlerbarge and two Strike Criusers. This give them enough equipment between the companies to deal with every situation. As far as air goes, I hav attached a Imperial Navy Carrier to each Battle Group and a Titan Transport Group.

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P.S Fluff imposes limitations that Epic does not need its an "EPIC BATTLE".


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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:43 pm 
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It's worth mentioning that the 1000 Marines == Chapter strength is a little misleading, since that's just their infantry force.

They also have crews enough to man their tanks & Thunderhawks, which seemingly must come from an unknown 'grey' pool of support/logistical Marines.

I know Bike groups (and I think also Land Speeder crews) are drawn from the 1000 Marines however (Bikers are the same guys as the Assault Marines).





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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:13 am 
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Well, SM1 in my opinion had the best TO&Es (Army Lists for the Military Impaired !!!). And SMs were called Regiments as well ... Chapters are for War widows baking cookies for Orphans ... ?We still use modified versions of the SM1 MTO&Es today for most of our Epic Forces ... ?The G/W fluff is Orwellian in nature and history is constantly re-written by the powers that be ! ? SM1 TO&Es have detachments (equal to Platoons or Sections)3 per Company, 3 Companies per Battalion and 3 BNs per Rgt. ?Plus Bn and Rgt Cbt Spt Dets ... Just like in a real combat unit ... The Dark Angels are uniquely organized.   1st Co. : DEATH WING  0-2 Asslt Dets, 0-2 Dev Dets, 1-3 Term Dets ...  2nd Co. IRON WING: 0-3 Tac Dets, 0-1 SPT  WPNS Det (Raps, T-Guns, Taras, Mortars)  ,  0-1 Dread Det., 0-1 Robot Det., 0-3 Armor (L/Raiders/Pred Dets.,  0-1 Ordinatus Det., (W/wind/Vindy)  3rd Co. RAVEN WING:  0-3 Skimmer Dets(Jet Bikes/L-Spdr Dets.), 0-2 Bike Dets.   Land Raiders & Rhinos are also in a Bn and Rgt Trans Pool .  T/hawks,  Drop Ships/Landing Craft are Bn or Rgt SPT Dets.    And Drop Pods are at Co. or Bn SPT ...   Bns have 3 SPT Dets and Rgt has 6 ...   CAS (Close Air SPT - ie.  P-47 T-Bolts, M-26 FBs, P-38 Lighting Strike Fighters) can be called in as in SM1 using 1/3 of your total battleforce level (this 1/3 includes CAS, Titans, and Off Board SPT (as in SM1) which equals Spacecraft, distant FA, even Naval Gun Fire.   The system works and has an air of "realism"!    That's the way we do it ... and have been since SM1.  But have added minor modifactions from SM2, E40K etc. ...     Based on my serving in 4 Infantry Bns,  the SMs are actually closer to the USMC ( I crossed trained at USMC BAT),  too heavy for the 101 Air Assault (I lead a Rifle plt there), and too light to be an ACR (worked with 4/7 CAV in ROK) ...   So I'm not only old school Epic, but old school real world Grunt ...   :D




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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:10 am 
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While Astartes are neither like the USMC nor like Armored Cav regiments, their operational methods are similar. Marines actually are independent armies, capable of independent campaigns on short notice.  Essentially the Imperium's '911 force'.  At least that's what they are in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition 40k codices.  Therefore, they have similar needs to Marines or Cav Regiments.  While Astartes may not think in the terms of platoon, company, battalion, and regiment, those are relatively easily understood terms when you're talking about armored vehicles.  Also, a Marine Chapter is roughly the size of a Regiment (but doesn't have the raw fighting power that a Regiment of Astartes would).  (note:  In the modern US army, 'cavalry' denotes a formation designed to be completely self-sufficient, including it's own transportation and artillery support.  There's two varieties:  armored cav, which uses armored vehicles for transportation and heavy weapons support; and air cav, which uses helicopters for transportation and heavy weapons support)

So, do we think that there's 30-40 total land raiders in a 'standard' Chapter, or do we believe that there are more like 50-60 Land Raiders (counting the 20 in the First Company)?

There are times when you need an armored company to break through an opponent's lines.  While USMC Marines do not have the armored support to break lines that way, they have lots more airpower available (nothing says "we're going where we want" quite like a carrier battle group backing up a MEU).  You say Astartes don't have any integral fighter/VTOL airpower, so that means they must have more tanks, or they are unable to break opposing lines without waiting for IG/AM support (which they are able to do alone, but it's easier with support).  Note that even the Ultrasmurfs have nearly 2 'companies' of Predators.  When you add the 'company' of Land Raiders in the armory, that makes a mixed 'Battalion.'

My question is, would there be more tanks in the armory?  I think that there would be.  After all, Devastators and Terminators can hitch a ride in Land Raiders in Epic, Templar 'Crusader squads' can hitch a ride in LRCrusaders in 40k.

Now, the US does not currently have light tanks (let's face it, Predators are lighter than Russes, which are lighter than Land Raiders), so I'm looking more at WW2 deployment patterns.  How many companies of Shermans per company of medium/light tanks in a Battalion (or was it battalions per regiment)?  I could assume that the dedicated LRaiders are separate from the armory 'company', and that there's only the 3-4 dets of Land raiders and roughly 8 dets of Predators (both types).  That could be adequate armored support, but I'd expect to see more armor.  

I have a real problem with how little artillery support there is in the fluff.  12-16 Whirlwinds is 3-4 WW dets.  Each chapter has 4 battle companies (3 in Unforgiven Chapters), each one of which should be directly supported by a WW det.  Then I have 4 reserve companies (usually in smaller deployments away from the Battle Companies or reinforcing the Battle companies), which also need WW support.  

Same problem with Vindicators.

The lack of Whirlwinds really affects the number of Hunters.  Astartes are very vulnerable to air attacks and don't have their own integral fighters for Combat Air Patrol, so need lots of SPAA.  Probably 12-16 per Chapter, maybe more.  Hunters and Whirlwind Hyperios are the only source of SPAA in the Marine arsenal.

While Sabers aren't in the current game, I'm sure that a few chapters have some stashed away someplace.  Probably 1-4 Saber detachments (4 each) stashed in the back gathering dust.

Now, Thunderhawks are manned by Astartes.  4 Astartes, in fact.  That's more than 120 Marines.  It's possible that Marines do pilot fighters, but since BFG specifically states that Astartes starship crews are almost completely Chapter Serfs, with only a bare minimum of actual Astartes onboard, I'd assume that any 'Astartes' air support that's not a Thunderhawk has chapter Serfs and/or servitors onboard, in addition to a very high-end Machine Spirit.  I will also point out that Marine Hunter-class(? the torpedo-armed versions) are seen by most of the Imperial Navy as being outside the writ of the Astartes.  They're too capable as anti-ship vessels, and enable Chapter fleets to either stand against the Imperial Navy or successfully attack a Navy-defended system.  I see the possibility that some Chapters, particularly those that don't play well with others, would acquire/build some fighters to protect the Thunderhawks.  They might be tough, but they're not invulnerable.  Fighters to distract the opponent's air defense fighters would be very useful, in addition to use in 'Wild Weasel' (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) missions.  After all, they are listed as part of the Astartes army in Epic.  I'd also point out that Astartes don't rely on IN Marauders for bombing attacks.  Instead, they use Thunderhawks for both missile and bomb close air support and long-range strategic bombing, in addition to starship attack.  (I'd really like to introduce the Missile and Bomb versions of the Thunderhawk for play in Epic)

As regards the VTOLs, the Astartes also use Land Speeder Tempests, which are easily as capable as a Vulture.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:14 am 
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Your such a crunchy L4.

CAL


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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:50 am 
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hey, L4, have you heard why infantrymen are called grunts?

A1:  Have you heard what infantrymen say when they pick up their rucks? *grunt*
A2:  Have you heard what civilians say when infantrymen walk by after 3 days in the field exercise? *grunt*

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Are the modified TO&Es that you use in the NetEpic download?  I may just use those to collect the Dark Angels.

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:58 am 
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In SM2 they had L/Rdr and Pred Co.s, so I say go for it !   Plus it makes sense (which G/W fluff does not in many cases!) ...   And yes, we too have Sabres in our TO&Es ... they are assault guns/TDs so deploy like Vindys ...   As far as WWII Tank Bns, IIRC,  3 M4 Cos and 1 M3/5 Co. per Bn ...  And yes US CAV units are more like the old RCT (Rgtl Cbt TM), a combined arms force as the USMC is.  And the US Army uses a BN Task Force and Co. Tm concept, where Infantry and Armor is cross-attached at Co. and Bn level plus attached CE, AA, AT, etc. elements.  The last Bde I served in was a Separate Bde.  Looked like an old RCT, 2 Mech Bns, 1 Armor Bn, 1 FA Bn, 1 CE Co, 1 Cav Trp, 1 CBT SPT Bn, etc.    BTW, Razorbacks are at Bn Trans Pool ...  Rhinos = M113s,  R/backs= M2 Bradleys ...  IMO ... and Hunter SPAA like W/Winds !  :D    The US Cav is a combined arms Battle Group ...  The ACR is obviously heavier with M2s, M3s, etc.  While the Air Cav has a lot of firepower with the AH-64 Apache Gunship ... and both retain the traditional Cav missions - recon, screening and pursuit ...    And yes, CAL, I'm a Grunt to the bone !!!  LOL !!!  :;):

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:20 am 
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Chapters are for War widows baking cookies for Orphans

:laugh:  :laugh:
Your new signature, L-4?  :;):
ANd you're all obviously forgetting the most important thing - Techmarine support vehicles.  :p

Oh, and I'd never heard of the Sabre before - sounds nice.  :D

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:32 am 
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Techmarines are in our MTO&Es, each Co. may have a tech or Chap, or Lib, or Medic attached !  I'll send you a pic of my Sabres and you can post them here if you like "V" ! Standby ...

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 Post subject: Marine Chapter's Armory
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:34 am 
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Hi,
Just a note regaeding marine air assets. In the paperback DoW:Tempest there is mention of marine fighters i.d. as cobras  ??? .


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