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Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:20 pm 
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I think my attempt to make modular titans have balanced costings (Especially for use with non-AMTL armies) has now achieved a plateau of non-perfection, but still, I reckon it's worth posting a little update to it.

AMTL weapons points costs 1.4


I'm vaguely mulling over rounding weapons costs up/down to the nearest 25pts, since that seems popular in most (Though not all) Epic:Armageddon armylists.




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Evil, I'm still having problems opening up this lost. Would you email it to me?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:18 pm 
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Not a problem, could you PM me your email address?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:22 pm 
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PM sent!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:26 pm 
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Email sent! :D

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:33 pm 
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Thanks. I hope I can open it on my PC at home (I'm at work now).

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asaura
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:22 am 
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I'm not sure these are worth the hassle. I've calculated the points costs for my two AMTL lists and everything comes within 30 points of the no-special-rules points costs. Why go to all the trouble? If we want to limit certain weapons, make them Assault or Support weapons and be done with it.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:37 am 
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Well...

- It stops exploiting of the list through overpowered combinations (Like the 4-Melta Warlords), by making them more expensive, in proportion with their increased utility.

- It opens up the possibility of bringing in weapons that don't have to be all balanced against each other in ability, just costed acording to their effectiveness, so we can have a Vortex Missile that is a real danger like it used to be, rather than just another flavourless one-shot missile.

- It makes underpowered Titans cheaper to buy, logical no?

- (Possibly most importantly) It instantly makes modular titans balanced when fielded with Marine or Imperial Guard lists. I've playtested over a dozen games with these rules and in none of them have the Titans been points of contention.

- It's also worth noting that Adeptus Titanicus used to have points costs for each weapon.


Basically, it allows some of the old flavour to be brought back to the Titans, without making fielding a Titan into a bookkeeping exercise.


EDIT:

It also means that an AMTL list will often have a clear BTS goal, rather than a bunch of titans which all cost exactly the same.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:50 pm 
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Of all those I think only the last one and the one about weapon-power are real issues. Personally I don't think I'd have any problems with enemies fielding non-standard titans with other armies, so long as they follow the normal guidelines (At least half Tactical, etc). Yes, you could field a 3x MRL, CPL as your BTS goal... Which might suck. But there are plenty of ways to pound such units to dust if you work at it.
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tneva82
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:07 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 25 2006,11:37)
QUOTE
Well...

- It stops exploiting of the list through overpowered combinations (Like the 4-Melta Warlords), by making them more expensive, in proportion with their increased utility.

-In the case of unbalanced combinations, this is expected, even encouraged!

Great system when unbalanced combinations are even encouraged! NOT!

Q. Why are the Warlord?s CC weapons proportionally more expensive than the Reaver?s?
A. The Warlord has a 2+ CC ability? it should be slightly more expensive to upgrade a Warlord?s abilities, otherwise it is significantly cheaper (Proportionally
speaking) to arm a Warlord with CC weapons than it is to arm a Reaver.


On the other hand reaver can actually GET into CC...Warlord will have CC weapon as nice decoration but unless enemy is particulary stupid he will not let warlord ENTER CC...15cm is not good speed if you want to get into CC. FF it's doable but CC and it only happens if enemy wants that. In which case there's darned good reason for wanting it...




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:56 pm 
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Great system when unbalanced combinations are even encouraged! NOT!


I'm not sure if you noticed, but this system uses the exact same composition rules as the AMTL list.

And yes, unbalanced compositions are encouraged, that's the entire reason the main AMTL list exists in the first place!

Unbalanced doesn't mean a super-killy titan of doom, it means a titan with a bias towards ranged weapons, or a strong FF weapons fit, etc.

Sure it's possible in both AMTL and this list to build super-killy titans, the only difference is, with this list you pay extra for the privilige.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:52 pm 
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Specialized titan is more like it. It's not by necessity a 'better' titan. Infact, something like a Warlord with 4x Melta-Cannons would get eaten alive by Leman Russ or Falcons. Since it can't catch them (They double, it has to march to beat their speed), and they can hammer it from outside it's firing range until it's dead. But if you let it get close to you or don't have fast-movers... Well then you're in trouble! WHich is appropriate. It's essentially a risk for payoff situation.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:30 am 
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Specialized titan is more like it.


Specialised then. :)

Either way, I just thought it'd be a fun idea to try putting together a list that would allow for more interesting, flavourful games, rather than lumping all weapons together when they quite definitely do not posess equal power.

Why should a 2x Rocket Launcher / 2x Chainfist Warlord cost the same ammount of points as a 2x Rocket Launcher / 2x Volcano Cannon Warlord, when the second Warlord is going to have a far greater effect on any game you care to mention?

And what about places where the AMTL list has been forced to strip all of the flavour out of the old weapons, like the Vortex missile for example, replacing them with flavourless alternatives so as to remain within the power restrictions of a single-cost system?

I believe the only logical solution to these problems is to cost weapons according to their very definitely distinctly different in-game utility.




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-AL
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:13 am 
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I agree that CC weapons should not cost more for the Warlord, since its so slow.   For that matter, I would think the defence laser would be more usefull than any CC weapon, yet its quite cheap.  Actually, I think the CC weapons are too expensive.

I would have though that since the titan weapons were intended to be fairly equil, that the points costs wouldn't varry as much as they do (but I do realize that was based on NetEpic's costing).

Just oppinion, backed by no game experience.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.4
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:18 am 
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I agree that CC weapons should not cost more for the Warlord, since its so slow.   For that matter, I would think the defence laser would be more usefull than any CC weapon, yet its quite cheap.  Actually, I think the CC weapons are too expensive.


Looks like it might be worth dropping them back down in cost comparable to the Reaver's then.

I would have though that since the titan weapons were intended to be fairly equil, that the points costs wouldn't varry as much as they do (but I do realize that was based on NetEpic's costing).

They were intended to be equal, within the bounds of the Tactical/Support system, Support weapons especially are simply far more powerful than Tactical weapons. Hopefully if we can find balanced points costs for all the weapons, the slot restrictions can be loosened/removed, yet still remain balanced due to the high cost of fitting out a Titan with all Support class weapons.

I havn't tested this hypothesis yet in-game though.

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