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Flame template weapons
Ilushia
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:02 am 
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On the WE bit, how about:

"When firing at a formation containing one or more War Engines the player may choose to 'hose it down', firing the entire template into the war engine. Do not place a template, instead measure to see if the war engine is within 20cm of the firer, if it is then the War Engine takes a number of attacks equal to it's DC/2. No other units in the formation are hit by this attack."

Or something like that. Barrage fire-power still does better then it does at hurting the surrounding area. But it can roast WEs with the best of them.

On multiple hits: I've used the Warhound with Inferno Gun (Two per formation, in fact), repeatedly. And I have almost never been in a situation where I HAD to overlap my flame-templates when firing at a formation. If I had two on the same model that might be more of an issue. I might suggest a mild revision in the way the rule is worded regarding placement of templates:

"When firing a flame template, you must hit as many enemy units as possible inside the target formation TOTALLED FOR ALL FLAME TEMPLATES IN THE UNIT."

So, when shooting at a 7 man unit which is spread out, I won't be forced to place the first template in the middle where it covers 4 of the 7, and then can't possibly place the other to hit more then 1 guy. I could spread them a little more and hose down the entire unit.

About repositioning: This one bugs me too. It's an understandable penalty. I'd say that 'If the opposing player can find a place it hits more units, they may reposition the template to that location instead'. In essence occasionally it may actually be a benefit for the enemy to reposition it to hit the most (Like if it'd move it off his character), or not. I've been hit with the repositioning bit before. At one point involving a normal barrage (Which doesn't have those rules I now realize), and it hurts, a lot.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:48 am 
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Allowing the opponent to interfere with your own placement is a game-breaking no-no.

Nowhere else in Epic is that allowed, and for good reason.

All it needs is watertight wording which puts the onus on the player. Allowing the opponent to move it himself is just... wrong.


On a related note, anyone want to buy a twin-inferno gun Warhound?  :(




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:27 am 
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If I had two on the same model that might be more of an issue.


Exactly. The second flame mount becomes essentially redundant / useless in 90% of situations.

Double-taking all other weapons in all other situations will either give you double the number of shots, or double the number of blast points.

Double-taking flame weapons when disallowing double-hits gives you pretty much nothing.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:35 pm 
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I'm not too sure about WE blocking the flamer attack to units behind it.

For something like a Gargant I could understand, but how do battle wagons stop the flames?  Inferno guns (and their hopeful tyrannid equivilents) are fired from a higher position, so they would wash down over the wagon and still pour over it into the boyz behind.

Similiarly against bipedial WEs (so any titan class except gargants) I can see the flames being played around its lets, so they can wash pass, as well as being used to fuse the leg joints.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:42 pm 
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Hena,

good work on clarifying the text for flame weapons. I now understand what you were identifying as a potential problem in my Demiurg list.

I would like to offer the following text as a further clarification based entirely on Hena's work. I reorganized and re-worded a little, but I don't think I changed his intent at all.

Flamer Templates

Template Placement
(1): Position the template so that it is touching the end of the weapon and the entire template is within the firing arc of the weapon. If using more than one template they must be placed at the same time and may overlap each other.

(2): The template(s) must be placed to cover as many enemy units from the target formation as possible.

(3): Determine how many units are affected by the template. A unit (friend or foe) is affected by the template(s) if any part of the model, or at least one enemy model on a stand, falls under the template(s).

(4): Roll one (1) to hit die for each affected infantry and vehicle unit scoring hits and carrying out saves as would normally be done for shooting.

(5): War Engines (WE): If a WE lies directly under the centre-line of at least one flame template, then it is subjected to a number of attacks equal to half its starting damage capacity, rounding fractions up. However, due to a war engine's huge size, the template weapon effect is blocked by the WE and any units behind the WE cannot be affected by that flame template. Other flame templates used in the same attack are not blocked by the WE, but cannot score additional hits on the WE. If a war engine is affected but not under the centre-line of any template it can only be attacked once.

Target Selection Note: If a flame template weapon is capable both anti-aircraft fire (AA) and ground fire (AP/AT), it may be fired at both aircraft and ground formation within the normal rules, but cannot affect both types of formations during the same shooting opportunity.

In other words if you shoot at an aircraft formation during the approach or disengage move the flame template does not affect ground formations, and during an activation a formation with a flame template weapon cannot affect aircraft formations.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:03 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Aug. 22 2006,12:35)
QUOTE
I'm not too sure about WE blocking the flamer attack to units behind it.

For something like a Gargant I could understand, but how do battle wagons stop the flames?  Inferno guns (and their hopeful tyrannid equivilents) are fired from a higher position, so they would wash down over the wagon and still pour over it into the boyz behind.

Similiarly against bipedial WEs (so any titan class except gargants) I can see the flames being played around its lets, so they can wash pass, as well as being used to fuse the leg joints.

The point is not that the stream couldn't fire past the WE, but that it is intentionally targetting the WE to the exclusion of other units in order to get the DC/2 attacks.  It's not necessarily a literal physical block.

If you don't want it to block, don't centerline the template and take the single shot against the WE as you hose over/between the legs/whatever.

====

Another option for the "hose down" would be to place a single normal barrage template on top of the target WE.  Then the rules are exactly as a normal barrage - DC/2 for the WE and everything in the "splash" radius is hit as normal.

Of course, that's getting more fiddly...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 pm 
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Since flame weapons generally are of the order of AT6+ or the like, I'd be okay with not having any anti-WE rules at all. Anyone using flame templates against a WE is simply picking the wrong target.

At most, I could see +1 to hit (On the standard single attack) against WE's.



Speaking of that, how about overlaps granting +1 to hit, instead of double-hits?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Again, I wouldn't do this as it does not match the current barrage rules.


Yes but as I mentioned, barrages get other advantages (More likely to hit, extra templates, very long ranges, often indirect fire) that compensate for that rule. Flame templates get none of these advantages.

They are a fundamentally different weapon system and IMHO require slightly different rules for dealing with multiple flame template weapons on a single chassis, otherwise the second flame weapon is (In the majority of situations) going to be a complete waste of a slot.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 22 2006,14:12)
QUOTE
Since flame weapons generally are of the order of AT6+ or the like, I'd be okay with not having any anti-WE rules at all. Anyone using flame templates against a WE is simply picking the wrong target.

I'm okay with that also.  I just have a general feeling it should be either a combo of WE target and blocking or neither.

Though, honestly, I'm not strongly opposed to other arrangements.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Is the "Light Inferno Gun" the only flamer template weapon in the AMTL or do I not have an up-to-date list?  

In my ver 2.0, the "regular" Inferno Gun is a 30cm 4BP IC weapon.  If the rules for flamer templates are so fiddly/causing problems, why not just change to a barrage?

Or, a second option, make both barrage point using weapons with range "flamer template" that use the same rules as barrages, but lay down the flamer instead of the circle.  That way "Light Inferno Gun"s would be 2BP each, so having two on one Warhound would produce a more effective attack as well as two templates.

Thoughts?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Flame template weapons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:42 pm 
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I think you're onto a good idea there Chroma!

I'd support changing the Light Inferno Gun to BP2, Ignore Cover, Flame Template.


*Flame Template being the universal special rule which will be used by both the AMTL & the Tyranid lists.

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