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Hunters a Comparison
CAL001
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:47 pm 
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In line with the poll on Land Raiders, I would like to take a look at the Hunter as an AA unit and discuss wheather they are worth taking in a game and what options there are for improvement, if required. In order to get started I am going to compare it with the Hydra, a seemingly effective AA unit. Here we go

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Hunter ? ? ? ? ? Hydra

Speed ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 30cm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 30cm
Armour ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?6+
CC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 6+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?6+
FF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?6+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5+
Range ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?60cm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?45cm
Weapons ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2
Stats ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?AT4+/AA4+ ? ? ? ? AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Dets ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?No ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Yes
Notes ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?ATSKNF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Nil
Cost ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?75 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?50

Hunter Advantages

Range, Stat values & ATSKNF

Hydra Advantages

Number of attacks, FF, Cost, Formations and is widely available to the guard player.

So, is 25 extra points worth 2BM to suppress, and a -1 to hit in values and a better save. Or is two attacks instead of one, cheeper to purchase, better FF, AP weapon system and availability to units and its own formation better.

Add comment and any suggestions you have on Hunters and their viability as a unit. Or is it worth having a hunter formation?

Cheers
CAL ? ? ? ????
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:10 pm 
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I had posted something similar to this a while back. Several people suggested moving the hunter to 3+ AA ability, which I think would work wonders, and widening the groups who can have it to include most of the Space Marine tank-units. Which would also help a lot IMHO. There're plenty of ways to set these things right. At present, though, they're very over-priced and I certainly would not field them unless I absolutely had to have the AA capacity. As far as  I can tell they're the worst AA unit in the game (Really their only advantage is range. A 5+ Armor Save isn't that great, and since it out-ranges units in it's own formation it's not very hard to avoid being close enough for it to shoot at you due to supression rules). The Hydra hits more consistently AND has a chance to hit multiple times, so can potentially shoot down 2 aircraft in a single pass, which is highly useful against things like Ork Fighta-Bommas and Eldar Phoenixes.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:40 pm 
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The other possibility is a price-reduction to 50 points. I'm sure most people won't like that since they have ATSKNF which the Hydras don't. But the Hydras rarely get suppressed anyway, unless in independent formations, since getting close enough to them for them to shoot at your aircraft typically means lots of other things will also be in range to be suppressed as well. At 50 points each and allowing them to be taken by more formations I think the Hunter would be just about in-line with the Hydra and the massive numbers of Flakk Wagons that Orks get.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:03 pm 
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You also have to consider synergy.

Hunters perhaps should be more expensive, since it is an area Space Marines are traditionally slightly weaker in.

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consectari
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:56 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 28 2006,10:03)
QUOTE
You also have to consider synergy.

Hunters perhaps should be more expensive, since it is an area Space Marines are traditionally slightly weaker in.

Wouldn't this be a justification for low effectiveness of the Hunter rather than high point cost?

Units should be priced based on their overall contribution to the army.

If SM are typically poor in AA, then they should have a limited number of an ineffective AA tank, but it's points cost should be low to reflect it's ineffectiveness.

And even though cheap, you wouldn't be able to buy a ton of them due to being limited.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:49 pm 
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An artificially high points cost is one way to represent rarity in an army, since it becomes prohibitively expensive to field too many, as was possibly the intention with the original Hunter stats/costings?

Personally I havn't had much trouble with my hunters, but I don't play enough games with aircraft to give a strong opinion.

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CAL001
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:39 pm 
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Keep it coming gang, there are some good points to work from here and I am starting to get an idea of where to go with this one.

Cheers
CAL
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CAL001
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:39 pm 
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What if we where to give them a formation. Four Hunters at 250 - 275 points. They would then be more useful as a unit. They can be placed mid field, perform AT and AA shooting and it is harder to suppress the asset. Any thoughts?

CAL
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:46 pm 
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I'd like to see a unit, but I think 4 would be a little much (Statistically you'll average 2 hits every time someone flies within 60cm, that's a LOT of AA power in one place!) 3 for 225 would be fine, IMHO. Normally I don't like units of just 3 things, but with marine "And They Shall Know No Fear" they won't break if you kill just one, so 3 should be fine. This allows them to act as a back-up formation for Predators if they need to, and as a long-rage AA weapon. Plant them in the middle of the board and the umbrella of protection will spread almost all the way across the board (All the way length-wise and about 2/3 of the way width-wise).
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Suvarov454
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:49 pm 
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Don't forget that Hunters give SM formations much needed AT shots, decent range, and an extra unit (which helps to eliminate outnumber DRMs in an assault). ?Furthermore, ATSKNF means a Hunter won't be surpressed when its formation has a single BM. ?

Finally, you'll never face the dillema I forced on my IG enemy in my recent battle. ?He had placed his Hydra Battery in the center of his line. ?I lined my Fitta Bommas up to pummel his Arty, with only one Hydra in range! ?He could either shoot the single Hydra in my approach move or he could shoot the entire formation during the disengagement move. ?The last sentence of 4.2.4 means he couldn't do both. ?He chose to shoot before I did, and managed to down a FB, so I think he chose wisely, but it's a hard choice to have to make.

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CAL001
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:11 pm 
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So then, the Poll is up for size of a formation and cost. So for an individual Hunter, what is it worth? Do we allow hunter as an upgrade to all SM ground formations. is it 0-1 or 0-2. For me I think they should be available to all the ground formations at 0 - 1 units. Cost wise I think we need to debate.

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CAL
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Hunters a Comparison
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:02 am 
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Personally, I think that a point system works only when units of equal capability have equal points, and rarity is represented by deployment limitations.

Either raise the effectiveness, or lower the point cost.  For example (although it's not a great one), the Tau Skyray.  Broadly speaking, it's got 50% more range than a Hydra, is slightly more maneuverable, but has a slightly less powerful weapon (in terms of secondary AP/AT ability).  It costs 50% more than a Hydra.

A Hunter has 1/3 greater range, but it's currently an anemic weapon.  Personally, I vote for increasing the firepower to AT3+/AA3+.  That is roughly equal to 2x AT5+/AA5+.

First priority for deployment would be the armor.  Pred/LR/Dread (if the formation is accepted).  Second Priority:  Devastators, then Tactical Marines.  Not available for Bikes or Speeders.

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