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Need your opinions!
consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Over in the Epic Rules, Epic Armageddon section, a group of us are working on a project. ?We are bringing Lizardmen from FB to Epic using DRM Krays. ? Topic name is E:A Rise of the Dracon if you want to look or give us your $0.02.

Don't laugh, it's looking great.

Here's where we need input:

This army uses a very few skimmers left to them by the Old Ones. ?They are very powerful but rare. ?Built sturdy and strong by a race more advanced than Eldar. ?

We need to use the DRM Kray light grav vehicles as proxies, but they are small. ?

For those of you who haven't received your DRM orders yet ?:D , they are prob. between Eldar Falcons and Eldar Wave Serpents in size.

As a hypothetical opponent of this army, how would you feel about vehicles this size being used as DC 2 and 3 WEs with the explaination that they are built tougher with better tech?

I know, alot of you are going to say DWWFY, but I want to get the perspective from the other side of the table.

I want to know what works for our opponents as they are often not JUST someone we want to grind into the dirt ?:;): , but someone whose opinion matters.

Comments can be posted here and will be greatly appreciated. ?You are also welcome to post them on our topic. ?
here

Thank you

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:22 pm 
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I don't have any problems with a smaller vehicle being DC 2 or 3. As far as I'm concerned, DC shouldn't be solely a function of how big something is. The sturdiness of its construction should be a factor as well.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:26 pm 
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The Kraytonians have some big tanks, don't they?

The size comparison pics from a while back showed tanks that pretty much completely filled a 30x40mm base included for scale, iirc.  That's in the same size range as Ork Forts and IG SHTs, if slightly smaller.

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consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:36 pm 
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The Krays have one SHT sized vehicle, the Andy's have one that would work as well.  

The teleporter vehicle however is about the same size as a standard Epic vehicle and that's one of the one's were most interested in.

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nealhunt
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:43 pm 
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Hmm... I would tend to shy away from making smaller vehicles multi-DC.  I know it's not all about size, as Dwarf Supreme noted, but it just doesn't feel right when you have a little dinky thing on the board that's dramatically tougher than other stuff with similar visual impact.

As far as specific minis, the Gerresh and Arka could definitley be 4+RA without a problem.  DC is stretching it just a bit but probably wouldn't be too bad, especially at DC2.  The Aurika would simply not make it as far as I'm concerned.

Why do you "need" to use the smaller vehicles? (I'm a bit behind on theee discussion as mentioned in the other thread)

Why do you feel obligated to stick to the "we absolutely can't make any more" or "lost technology" concept?

===
In case someone is looking for the comparison thread, it's here.  The big ones are actually only slightly larger than a land Raider and not quite as tall.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:11 pm 
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I also think that even GW SHTs are too small in comparrison. Even throwing out the Land Raider, some of the SHTs out there are not much bigger than standard AFVs.

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consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:54 am 
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Why do you feel obligated to stick to the "we absolutely can't make any more" or "lost technology" concept?


It just seems to fit with the concept we've developed so far. ?

The Old Ones created the Xlan/Slann to be protectors of the Universe and gave them equipment to do it. ?

They weren't made to be genuises, just warriors. ?

When the Old Ones died out, the Xlan/Slann were left on their own to try to fulfill their mission. ?

Here we injected a bit of real life. ?The Xlan/Slann are reptiles. ?In real life, reptiles don't evolve that fast, so as a race, they are only a little further along than they were. ?

They couldn't possibly understand technology that was created by beings so advance that many races consider them gods.

This is the game mechanic reason they are limited in number. ?They're engines of the gods. ?They pack quite a whallop. ?Can't have too many in an army and still be balanced.

Edit:
I'd like to include here that we are almost religeously sticking to either WFB Lizardman fluff, Warmaster fluff or 40k Old One and Slanni fluff. ?Most of the vehicle stuff is generated by us because there's none out there, but hardly anything else is. ?Where possible, were even keeping the general army structure and unit roles from WFB.

We're having fun, but also taking it SERIOUS over there.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:03 pm 
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I just think if you have millenia-old leaders floating around that they could conceivably have figured out how some of the stuff works.  I'm not up on the WFB background but from what I do know I don't think there is any reason to necessarily make them incapable of creating new gear.

But mostly I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick.  It strains my suspension of disbelief.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:49 pm 
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Right now I'm picturing the lighter vehicles being replicateable. The Aurika tank is going to be a "Light" old-one tank. Non-WE, not even RA infact, but very fast and carrying a single long-range high-power main cannon. Presumably having much simpler systems then the others. The others I'm picturing being fielded like Imperial/Eldar SHTs. Units of 1-3 typically with the largest of them, the Arkelash Tank, being fielded solitary and coming from your 'Titan/Aircraft' allowance instead of  normal stuff (The thing is very powerful right now, and definitely needs to be restricted IMHO).

For the 'size of models being too small' consider that many of the larger models in Epic are  infact half-scale to the normal infantry. All of the Knight sized models and up are essentially half-size. The Warhounds are  infact not that much bigger then Leman Russ, and  are actually significantly SMALLER then Imperial SHTs are over all. The Eldar SHTs are almost as long as a Reaver is tall (though they're not nearly as deep), so it's not hard to imagine that the tanks you see on the field are actually much smaller then they should be. The Ordinatus as well, should be almost a foot long and isn't close to that large.

At present only the Arkalesh is a WE with more then 3 DC. The others are 3 DC each, currently. While they might be produceable by the Dracon they're certainly not going to be produced in large numbers.
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consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:09 pm 
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I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick.  


Just out of curiosity, who else is doing this?

It strains my suspension of disbelief.

More than sentient minds transfered into robot bodies, living metal, genetic memory, beings that grow from spores, humans that live in an etherial realm that allows them to survive 10 thousand years?  

If GW didn't blow the heck out of your suspension of disbelief when they said the planets at the center of the galaxy were the oldest, I don't know what would.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not ranting, or being defensive, I'm just presenting the argument that there isn't anything in this game that wouldn't strain your suspension of disbelief if you let it.

Just as one final example:

I know how to operate a computer.  I can even put in new parts and change things around.  But I couldn't build one to save my life.

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consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:12 pm 
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I know how to operate a computer.  I can even put in new parts and change things around.  But I couldn't build one to save my life.


Nor do I understand how it works.

See, were really not out of our minds.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:45 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 20 2006,15:09)
QUOTE
I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick.  


Just out of curiosity, who else is doing this?

Orks - created by brainboyz and don't have tech aside from inborn "genetic knowledge"

Imperium - all kinds of lost tech and tech-superstition, marines created by a god-emperor

Eldar/dark eldar - lost tech is mostly webway stuff, entire race and culture shaped by reaction to a deity (Slaanesh)

Necrons - basically an entire race composed of self-repairing lost tech created by their godlike leaders

And, of course, there are tons of other examples in similar genres like lost tech for Battletech mechs.

I know how to operate a computer.  I can even put in new parts and change things around.  But I couldn't build one to save my life.

Not that this is really on topic, but that's not at all the same.  There are thousands of peope who do know that are easily accessible and if you really cared, you could simply go to the library and find a book on the theory and construction of everything from silikon chips to floppy discs and learn it yourself.  The knowledge is in no way "lost."

Historically, if human beings have "lost" knowledge, like is alleged with the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria, it stops being practiced within a generation.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:47 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jul. 20 2006,14:03)
QUOTE
But mostly I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick.

I'm tired of it, too.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:50 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 20 2006,15:09)
QUOTE
I'm tired of the "created by ancient race and using tech they don't understand" schtick. ?


Just out of curiosity, who else is doing this?

It was done at least once in a Star Trek episode.

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consectari
 Post subject: Need your opinions!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Well, I didn't intend this topic to be a discussion of why or how we are doing things.  That needs to go over in the main topic.  I'll be glad to go into anything you like over there.   Link is at the top or in my signature.

This topic is here to get a simple answer to a simple question.

We now know how Dwarf Supreme, nealhunt and CyberShadow feel.  

It would be a great help if others could offer input as well.

Would it bother you to play against an army that had small vehicles that were WE.

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