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Hit and Run

 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Hit and Run makes the Eldar army what it is - it gives it flavour.

I can't really think of anyway to change the rule, to be honest I think its quite balanced.


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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:27 am 
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IMHO, hit and run are not what makes the Eldar list broken.

I think its a valuable tool to the army.

If other unnecessary items are fixed in the BT list, then I think we've already seen in test games that the army starts relying more on the glancing possibilities than HnR offers.

That's a good thing IMHO.

I also feel it gives the E:A eldar list a flavorful feel to show just how advanced the Eldar skimming tech really is.

As you mention spirit stones - that's one of the real BT Eldar problems the player community has come to recognize, and why you see more dialogue on it... not HnR.

If you want an example, take an Eldar BT list you feel effective... play a game with SS but no HnR.

Now play that same game again, and use HnR but eliminate SS.

I suspect you too will come to the conclusion of which rule is the issue in a 3-4 turn game.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:58 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 15 June 2006 (23:27))
If you want an example, take an Eldar BT list you feel effective... play a game with SS but no HnR.

Now play that same game again, and use HnR but eliminate SS.

I suspect you too will come to the conclusion of which rule is the issue in a 3-4 turn game.

Yeah, okay, I think if you did that you'd only demonstrate just how big a boost Hit-and-Run gives the eldar (and the relatively minor effect of spirit stones). Not only would their vehicles be way more vulnerable to return fire (since no hit-and-run means no move-shoot-move), but they'd also be much more vulnerable to assaults after performing one themselves. Eldar don't have the armor to survive in such a position.

The power of Hit-and-Run should not be downplayed. The real reason that it is not on the short list of things to change is that it is one of the core design principles of the craftworld list. It was the main idea that the whole E:A Eldar list was built on. Getting rid of it would be akin to going back to the drawing board.


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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:23 pm 
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The power of Hit-and-Run should not be downplayed. The real reason that it is not on the short list of things to change is that it is one of the core design principles of the craftworld list. It was the main idea that the whole E:A Eldar list was built on. Getting rid of it would be akin to going back to the drawing board.


Here, here, I couldn't agree more with this statement.

Hit and Run not only MAKES the Eldar army what it is, it can also be overcome tactically, and therefore NOT a problem.

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:36 am 
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Semaj,

I'll agree with the second part of your coments. I'll let the public see what they think about the first part of your commeent on their own - as people have been doing.

Jaldon's comments are more to the point and dead on. Can't disagree at all.

I actually like hit-and-run quite a bit in the Eldar list and would never want to see it go away.

cheers,

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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:10 am 
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Just to throw an almost certainly unbalanced thought out there -

It seems to me that the most popular shooty units (excepting Revenants) in the Eldar list are things like Scorpions, Void Spinners, and Fire Prisms, when things like Falcons and Vypers don't see nearly as much use.  The ones that are used are the more stationary of units, ones that tend to sustain fire or move & shoot.  Falcon Pulse Lasers are also such that doubling with them seriously impacts their accuracy (they lose 45% of their effectiveness).

While I've found H&R to be somewhat handy against Guard, provided I can deal with the artillery, I still don't get a huge amount of use out of it.  It generally seems a better idea to sit back with Void Spinners, Scorpions, and Prisms and force the enemy to come to you, at which point you Sustain Fire them if they're in range, or move and shoot if they're not.  I'm not sure that I've even used the H&R rule more than once or twice in all of my games against the Tau.  They have the mobility to almost always get you with a double, and their weapons suffer less from doubling than ours do.  At least, I've been quite competitive playing the same 'make them come to you' game.  What my opponents fear the most isn't my ability to move, shoot, and move, it's what happens if they end a move in range of my guns, since they get Sustained Fired like crazy, and since Pulse weapons don't just linearly increase in effectiveness.

What if Hit and Run disallowed the +1 to hit for Sustained Fire actions while negating the -1 to hit for Double actions?  I suppose that artillery would need some kind of exception, or maybe not, depending.  I imagine that this would require more repointing than is justified in a rules review, though it'd be interesting to see what this did coupled with the removal of spirit stones.  It seems to me that it'd encourage much more evasive and mobile play.






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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:05 am 
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Quote (Gotchaye @ 26 June 2006 (00:10))
While I've found H&R to be somewhat handy against Guard, provided I can deal with the artillery, I still don't get a huge amount of use out of it.

I find the best part about Hit and Run is the "full move" after winning assaults that allows one to set up all kinds of nasty support situations, I don't often use it for much else.

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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:28 pm 
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I was thinking about hit and run and had a similiar idea to Gotcheye. In addition to its present benefits it negates the to hit modifier for doubling thus encourageing that sort mobile play. The positive to hit modifier for sustaining can either be retained but eldar formations that have sustained suffer a -1 armour save modifier (to represent eldar units relying on mobility as much as armour for defence) or remooved as well. I would favour the first option. Also allow eldar units with indirect fire ability to use this while on double or advance orders but obviously they would not benefit from the +1 for sustaining (if it is retained) unless they sustained. Small formation sizes for Night Spinners could be retained and spirit stones coule be entirely remooved. Unfortunately some points cost might need to be adjusted.

Just some crazy mad ideas that would make eldar more similiar to how they play in Gothic though wether thats a good thing i don't know.

Doug

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 Post subject: Hit and Run
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:03 pm 
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Chroma,

I notice that the abuse part of post combat has been attempted to be addressed in the recent revisions. That's encouraging as I agree with you, it was a bit absurd for the common folk to consolidate 5cm and to have Eldar bolt 35cm away! WTF was that all about anyway!?

New efforts definitely work to target a more flavorful but effective application of the original rule's target. Much more pleased with the 3x the normal unit's ability of 15cm instead of the gross 7x result some units were benefiting from previously!

I'm already working on Eldar list changes to my army as I embrace this new change. I actually realized I was counting on that 35cm move with some of my units - hah!

'wave'

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