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Ignoring outnumbering
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:54 pm 
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Last week played a couple of games of marines vs tau (the batreps are the chap with the cameras department :) ). Also should have had a Dark angel game tonight but was defeated by london transport.

Two solid wins for the Marines, both turn 3. Now we were supposed to be using all the experimental suggestions but I realised a few days later we didn't use the outnumbering suggestion. We just had the points break, an increase on terminators, leader boost etc.

I've never been entirely keen on this suggestion, largely because the +1 doesn't become a big factor all that often, if anything it would result in a few more draws which i think the marines would then generally lose due to more countercharges coming in and wieght of incoming assault fire nobling them in those sorts of situations.

Sure I recognise that it would mean the marines not losing so many troops to combat resolution but to be honest I would prefer fearless leaders. About the same effect but is a further boost for these chaps who are for me the most dissapointing aspect of the army. Marines for me are led by the bravest, most skilled etc etc. A marine leader being a giant amoung giants. Currently in Epic Commissars are the best, probably followed by exarchs and then we have marine heros.

I reckon its a far better alternative, keeps the marine player fom going all gung ho and is a boost for assaults and the mistreated marine leader.

I'm now going away to sort out my scout sniper librarians (well scout snipers are good in the US marines, why not the space arines :) ).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:05 pm 
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I do agree, the Marine Characters do look a bit on the weak side when compared with the humble Comissar!

I've been debating what to do about the battle report, as I think the pictures I took generally came out too dark to be usable.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:24 pm 
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Personally I think the Commissar is just straight better then they should be. They're strong, tough, good in melee AND Fearless. Oh, and they're FREE, let's not forget that! They're really only good because they effectively let you ignore the first failed morale check of the game, and when that happens they kill the squad leader and take over the squad! If anything I think Commissars should lose Fearless. Marine commanders picking up Fearless would be cool with me as well, but Commissars, even as cool as they are, just aren't that good at leading men compared to other army commanders to warrent Fearless, IMHO. They're only as good as the IG Army Leader or an Ork Warboss with Bosspole... And I know Epic isn't replicating 40K, that's fine, but can someone tell me one really good and compelling reason why Commissars SHOULD be fearless in E:A?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:38 pm 
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The steel legion is balanced as is and what would you buff in response?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:48 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 14 June 2006 (23:38))
The steel legion is balanced as is and what would you buff in response?

To be honest? I really don't know. It might fit better to just modify some of the other units (Or add Fearless to the list of things Supreme Commanders are) rather then change the Commissars. It just feels odd to me for them to be that much better then leaders in most of the other groups when they really aren't. I'm probably just griping over something which doesn't feel right to me style-wise and could easily be fixed by changing the Marine leaders to Fearless, which suits them quite nicely indeed, and that I'm going out there to over-complicate things to make up for it.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:07 am 
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I prefer the ignoring outnumbering rule to the counting half BMs for combat resolution, simply because it seems like there are more times that the SMs are outnumbered than there are times when the SMs are at a BM disadvantage.

Mainly, I feel like BM management is the players responsibility (i.e don't charge in if you're at a BM disadvantage), but SM players can do little to change the numbers in a hoard list. Every little bit helps, even a measly +1. Fearless leaders would be okay, but marines are already pretty resistant to hack down hits.
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Honda
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:54 am 
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Please mark your calendars, this is the second time I have agreed completely with Hena.  :p

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:17 am 
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Well, I have a game today in an hour or so featuring marines. I'll try without and then with as it were.

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Castorp
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:16 pm 
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@ TRC

Could you summarize the changes you used for the marine army list? I really would like to be up to date with the experimental list.

Thanks
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:35 pm 
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In essence their isn't one. Several people have different ideas about what should be changed, mine is mostly in the marine changes thread. Outnumbering is something with a fair bit of support but something that as I play more with and against marines I don't think is needed. The game yesterday was a marine win and we looked at each assault - in each case the change would have simply allowed the marines to win a bit better, bar one tied assault (which I went on to  win) and one that I would have needed a lot more than +1!

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:37 am 
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Well, I think it would be instructive to know what exactly you changed. Did you discount armor detachments by 25pts or 50pts? Did you count only half BMs for assault resolution? Were you using dreads as their own formation, or did you change them to an upgrade of 0-4. Did you make SM leaders remove 2 BM instead of 1?

I find that it is hard to keep track of the numerous "mutually exclusive" ideas, and different people have different opinions as to which suggestion is the "leading contender."
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ignoring outnumbering
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:41 am 
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First off I could perhaps do a bat rep. I didn't take pictures as my digital cameras are being repaired. However my brother informed me after the ame 'oh you know mine was free'. The benifit of hindsight. I could do a 'studio trick' and set up the forces (I was doing my DA vs my SL as the opponent had only brought BFG ships) unfotuently since my gaming tables were destroyed or reasons of space last week it would be played out on the alien world of my carpet.

In that case the changes I reckon the marines should have in general can be found here and are summerised in below:-

ATSKNF
Change to include marine Leaders removing two blast markers instead of one.
Units
New Unit - Supreme Commander, gets own entry and Fearless
Commander - gets Fearless
Attack bike - Speed goes up to 35cm.
Vindicator - Speed goes up to 25cm
Land Raider - FF increases to 4+
Razorback with lascannon - Drop FF to 6+
Predator Destructor - FF increases to 4+
Thunderhawk Interceptor - see main suggestion
Marauder Bombers - Fix
Titans - See seperate change thread

Army List
GT Special Rule ? Transport rule reworded
Land Raider - 375 points, can also add a Hunter
Landing Craft - 375 points
Predators - 275 points, can also add a Hunter
Scouts - 175 points
Terminator - 350 points, can also add Hunter
Thunderhawk - can be replaced with interceptor
Vindicator - 275 points, can also add a Hunter
Dreadnought - Can now add one to four Dreadnoughts
Land Raider - Now 75 points as an upgrade
Interceptor ? 75 points
Sniper - 10 points per stand, Scouts may get sniper as a unit ability
Vindicator - 50 points

275 points for one Warhound or 500 points for two

And the army list used was the proposed Dark Angels one (can be found here) using the above changes and also
Intractable - Except Deathwing and the Ravenwing when you take a hold action you can't move (so out of coherancy ynits die) but all units in the formation become fearless till end of turn
Deathwing - 400 points for the formation of 4 terminators, gain Fearless
Ravenwing - 250 points - Any 5 of the following units: Bikes, Speeders
(All Ravenwing units gain a 3+ Armour Save and the Walker special ability.) Upgrades: Attack Bikes, Commander, Tornado, Typhoon

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