ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model.  Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:26 am |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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I'd just throw Inspiring on it to represent the Lash Whips (Works wonders to represent The Horror, as well!).
As for the Trygon and Tunneling: The only way I can see this being possible right now would be to make the Trygon a Synapse creature with Teleport, no spawning ability, and the ability to take some number of brood-creatures with it when teleporting... Which would add YET ANOTHER special rule to probably THE most special-rule intensive list to date. Plus Trygons aren't Synapse. In 40K scale dropping creatures outside direct synapse range is fine, in Epic it's a no-no. So it'd require some new mechanic, most likely, to work the way you'd want it to. If want to effectively represent it's ability to forward-strike like that, give it Infiltrate. That'll let it go screaming off during assaults, though it can't drag other critters with it.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:32 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Aye, Inspiring would be a good representation for Lash Whips, agreed.
Agreed, Trygons shouldn't be Synapse creatures, and unfortunately no Synapse creatures are listed as being able to squeeze through the Trygons' tunnels. Tunneling is definitely an important aspect of how Trygons operate however... Teleport seems an easy way of adding this.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:48 am |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England
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Such a nice model. I can't believe they don't think that their is enough demand for epic nids. 
On the whole weapon thingy.
I am beginning to think that only the big WE (dominatrix, hydraphant and possible Viturepator) should have TK(D3), all the other TK attacks should be reduced to TK(1).
With fflamer template weapons, on all of them except the Harridan it could easily be a flamer bioweapon rather thana breath weapon.
Finally lashwhips, Another way to represent them could be an invulnable save, representing them tangling up the attacker at the last minute stopping the attack.
_________________
Tyranid air marshal
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There's already stats for the Bio-Cannons, for the most part all that needs to be done is put them in instead of the Breath Weapon attacks, then modify points values if appropriate.
Finally lashwhips, Another way to represent them could be an invulnable save, representing them tangling up the attacker at the last minute stopping the attack.
Allow me to change my vote from Inspiring to Invulnerable Save... never let it be said I'm not to be swayed by a new and shiny idea
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:28 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Yes, the Bio-shock attack of the Trygon's should be a 15cm range weapon at maximum. Having it as a template attack is completely at odds with the new model.
All 5 of the Bio Titans have massive claws of one type or another.
In 40k, placed in CC killing-ability order, they are:
Barbed Hierodule: 2 Attacks. WS4.
Harridan: 2 Attacks. WS5.
Scythed Hierodule : 4 Attacks. WS6.
Trygon: 5 Attacks. WS6
Hierophant: 5 Attacks. WS6.
The Hierophant's superior abilities come from its Lash Whips (reducing each enemy model's CC attacks by 1), it's Regeneration, and its higher ammount of Mass Points & wounds (DC).
Trygon: T7, W5, Mass Points 1.
Hierodule: T8, W5, Mass Points 3.
And Mass Points are a LOT more difficult to get rid of than normal wounds.
So basically,
Hierophant: Regenerating big nasty with two Bio Cannons & awesome CC abilities, and high DC.
Trygon: Tunneling big nasty, comparatively vulnerable, very limited ranged attack & awesome CC abilities, and very low DC.
The Trygon's ranged attack is pretty weak... and is range 12 inches. It certainly isn't a massive shockwave of death anymore.
And the DC3 is probably too much for a Trygon.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:53 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Tyranid Bio-Titans get inflated DC levels because it helps represent their Wounds as well as their Toughness and actual Mass Points.
3 Mass Points and 5 Wounds is at least DC 4-5, all things considered. Especially when tied to Toughness 8, 2+ armor, 5+ invulnerable saving units! That's vastly harder to kill then 10-15 terminators.
The other thing to remember is that 40K scale REALLY isn't built to handle titans properly. I wouldn't make any melee attacks in 40K scale more then TK(1), really. They just don't do enough damage. Carnifexes deserve a MW attack, and a few other really big bugs do too. But I wouldn't put Scythed Heirodules at higher then TK(1), and probably only 1 attack at that rate too... They're only slightly better then Carnifexes in 40K scale after all. Both are S10, both get 4 attacks, both are monstrous creatures. The Heirodule is mostly better because it's got WS 6, instead of WS 3, by default. Heck, even the Heirophant is only S10 and only gets 5 attacks! Remember: 40K scale depowers things a LOT compared to Epic scale. Fluff-wise Bloodthirsters are supposed to be as skilled and potent in melee as a Primarch is, but you regularly see things like Chaplains take them down with only a handful of troops backing them up. Chaplain and 5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers can take one down easily under current rules, and loose only 1-2 guys usually in the process.
Using 40K stats as justification for things which already have pre-existing Epic-scale stats is far more appropriate. We didn't re-write the Warhound on account of Forgeworld's information on it did we? We didn't change the way Eldar Aircraft worked because of them either. Vampire Raiders are only DC 2 not DC 3. Can transport more units. There is no Vampire Hunter at all, that I can find. Etc. 40K stats are awesome for things which lack Epic-scale stats to begin with (Think Tau units or Necron units), but really aren't all that useful for units with existing Epic-scale stats...
That said, I'd like to see Hierophants line up, more or less, with 40K scale stuff. Save that their stats should be appropriately bumped upwards to fit with the fact that they're bumped downwards for 40K scale. I personally would NOT give them specific bonus TK-level weapons for Hierophants unless they exchange one or both of their main weapon-slots for them. The 5 attacks at S10 should be represented by the fact that they get 6 attacks at 3+ in close-combat. Highly likely to tear up vehicles and infantry alike!
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ragnarok
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:52 am |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England
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I've been thinking about the attacks of the large brood creatures a bit at work and I'm beginning to think that the larger creatures should have massively powerful CC attacks.
The scythed hierodule has the same number of attacks as most, the tyrgon has more but they are weaker at S6.
However several of the BWEs (I can't quite remember which ones) have the terror as an ability.
So I was thinking, what about reducing the extra attacks of the hierodule to +1CC MW and the trygon to +2CC and giving them inspiring to represent the overwhelming horror of their presence.
In theory the heirodule should be +2CC MW inspiring (since our one has exchanged its biocannons for more attacks.
However, after playing with some dice, I have come to the conclusion that the heirodule, Heirophant and carnifex are more than capable of critical damaging a WE in a single round of close combat, with the Hierodule capable of destroying one (averaging 4 penatrating hits), so +2CC TK(1) inspiring, should be reasonable.
Though I would love to see the heirodule and carnifex being allowed to exchange all of their attacks for a single TK(1) attack, though this would be another extra rule.
_________________
Tyranid air marshal
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N0-1_H3r3
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:44 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:29 pm
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Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 17 June 2006 (19:53)) | | We didn't re-write the Warhound on account of Forgeworld's information on it did we? We didn't change the way Eldar Aircraft worked because of them either. Vampire Raiders are only DC 2 not DC 3. Can transport more units. There is no Vampire Hunter at all, that I can find. Etc. 40K stats are awesome for things which lack Epic-scale stats to begin with (Think Tau units or Necron units), but really aren't all that useful for units with existing Epic-scale stats... |
Well, the Forgeworld 40k-scale Warhound was actually written around the existing Epic information (3 Structure Points, 2 Void Shields, same sorts of weapon fits), and, aside from the DC of the Vampire Raider, and the presence of Deathspinners instead of Missile Launchers on the Phoenix Bomber, the Eldar aircraft are equipped, and function, in the same manner on both 40k and Epic scales.
The Vampire Hunter, meanwhile, appears in the Saim-Hann variant list, as far as I can remember.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: ForgeWorld Epic Scale Hierophant Model. Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:39 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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| Quote (ragnarok @ 19 June 2006 (10:52)) | I've been thinking about the attacks of the large brood creatures a bit at work and I'm beginning to think that the larger creatures should have massively powerful CC attacks.
The scythed hierodule has the same number of attacks as most, the tyrgon has more but they are weaker at S6.
However several of the BWEs (I can't quite remember which ones) have the terror as an ability.
So I was thinking, what about reducing the extra attacks of the hierodule to +1CC MW and the trygon to +2CC and giving them inspiring to represent the overwhelming horror of their presence.
In theory the heirodule should be +2CC MW inspiring (since our one has exchanged its biocannons for more attacks.
However, after playing with some dice, I have come to the conclusion that the heirodule, Heirophant and carnifex are more than capable of critical damaging a WE in a single round of close combat, with the Hierodule capable of destroying one (averaging 4 penatrating hits), so +2CC TK(1) inspiring, should be reasonable.
Though I would love to see the heirodule and carnifex being allowed to exchange all of their attacks for a single TK(1) attack, though this would be another extra rule. |
The Trygon should really have MW attacks. I'd qualify anything that has both power-weapon and S6+ to be a macro-weapon in melee (Due to number of attacks usually). Take the Eldar Avatar: It's ALSO S6 and a Monstrous Creature and gets MW attacks.
The Carnifex, the Scythed Heirodule and the Hierophant are all roughly evenly matched in melee, in terms of attack power and suchlike. But remember that the scale in 40K STOPS at S10. So, for instance, Volcano Cannons and Demolisher Cannons have exactly the same Str/AP, despite the Volcano Cannon being MASSIVELY more powerful then a Demolisher Cannon is supposed to be! While using 40K scale stats are neat, they're not the best way to do it. I'd make Heirophants be EA(+2) TK(1) at a start, and be able to give up their Bio Cannons in favor of Gigantic Claws with EA(+2) TK(D3) attacks on those claws. Replace one Bio Cannon with one Gigantic Claw. That makes them roughly equiv (slightly worse actually) then Power Fists on an Imperial Titan. Yes if they take two claws they can do HUGE damage in melee with 4x TK(D3), 2x TK(1) and 6x normal CC attacks. But they'd have no ranged ability at all and be totally dependent on getting into close-combat with the enemy.
The reason I suggest making the Heirophant be EA(+2) TK(1) is because it makes them line up more or less with the Bloodthirster (Another massively powered-down unit in 40K scale) which is about right. They're both supremely strong and powerful creatures which can tear up entire formations, sunder tanks, kill titans, etc.
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