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Marine Suggestions
nealhunt
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:14 pm 
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15cm move and can't garrison, so they negate the Preds' nice speed.  It doesn't matter how heavily armed the unit is if it can't get a shot in and 425 for 3BP indirect fire is a bit steep, not to mention the fact that they simply won't ever get into assault except on the enemy's terms.

The Defiler is also considerably less durable.  It has worse armor.  Sure, they are Fearless but in a mixed formation the Preds will still be eligible for hack-down hits, meaning you are still losing a lot of value.

Also, I'm not sure where you get this "much more heavily armed" bit from.  They both have 3 ranged weapon systems.  The Defiler's a slightly better (mostly due to flexibility), but the ranges are wonky at 75cm/45cm/15cm.  Only in assault are they significantly better.

You are correct that in a dedicated formation they are better than LRs, but they aren't in a dedicated formation in the CSM list and their abilities are largely wasted (or they waste the abilities of the units they are attached to).  I'll gladly take them at 400 points for 4 in the L&D list because they are in a dedicated formation, but in the BL list they just don't fit very well, being neither fish nor fowl.

====

But a detailed comparison of Defilers to Land Raiders is a bit off topic...

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:10 am 
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What would people think about letting LR formations transport other formations in the same way WE can.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:54 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 10 May 2006 (15:23))
A 375 point formation is not too far from that. ?I think a better comparions than ?Leman Russ, because it is more direct, would be LRs in the Chaos lists. ?They are quite a good unit at 75 points each. ?The SM version gains ATSKNF which is a substantial boost. ?Based on that they should be a nice step up from the 75 points.

At 375 points per formation, they are at 93,75 points per Land Raider. That's 18,75 more points than Chaos Land Raiders. A nice step up indeed. ???

Is ATSKNF worth almost 20 points per unit, especially in small formation sizes? ?:80:
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:29 pm 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 18 May 2006 (10:54))
Quote (nealhunt @ 10 May 2006 (15:23))
A 375 point formation is not too far from that. ?I think a better comparions than ?Leman Russ, because it is more direct, would be LRs in the Chaos lists. ?They are quite a good unit at 75 points each. ?The SM version gains ATSKNF which is a substantial boost. ?Based on that they should be a nice step up from the 75 points.

At 375 points per formation, they are at 93,75 points per Land Raider. That's 18,75 more points than Chaos Land Raiders. A nice step up indeed. ???

Is ATSKNF worth almost 20 points per unit, especially in small formation sizes? ?:80:

I'd say 'no', personally. ATSKNF is really more of a way to avoid being disabled by blast markers as small units. It makes Marines much harder to get rid of despite being only 3-4 bases strong. I'm not saying it's worth nothing (It is worth quite a bit) but on a small-sized formation it just doesn't feel right for them to pay so much per unit. Maybe that's just me, but I'd much rather have 8 tanks for 600 points which get suppressed by a single blast marker then 4 tanks for 400 points which take 2 blast markers to suppress each.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:36 pm 
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Well, it's not 8 tanks for chaos.  It's a max of 6 per formation.  Nor is it, in this discussion, 400 points for the Marines.  It's 375.  In other words:

6 for 450
4 for 375

I think it's a tough question.  Obviously, 6 have more firepower to start but throw some shots at them and see what happens.

1 BM - 5 tanks to 4
2 BM - 4 tanks to 3
1 casualty/2BM - 3 tanks to 2
Kills in 1 volley to break the formation - 2 to 2
Kills in 2 volleys to break - 1 to 1

And take into consideration the TSKNF resistance to hackdown hits.  With 4+RA, the chances that a broken SM LR formation will survive being fired at with zero casualties is pretty good.  A Chaos LR formation will always take 1 casualty.  In the case they fail, SMs lose 1 (1 casualty, 1 hackdown) and the Chaos loses 3 (1 cas, 2 hack) which is half the formation either way.

You could make the case that LRs in the SM list are more fragile because they are magnets for MW/TK shots, but it's not like the SMs can't load up on 4+RA units.  Terminators and Warhounds are already perennial favorites.

To boil it down, I'd put the durability of 4 LRs at about the same level as 6 Chaos LRs, but the Chaos LRs have more firepower.  The Chaos LRs cost 20% more.

That sounds about right to me.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:38 pm 
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Neal, what version of the list are you using? I have v3.7 right now, and the Black Legion Armored Company is 4-8 tanks. 50 points each for Predators or 75 points for Land Raiders. Is there a more recent version then v3.7 out?
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:28 pm 
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Doh!  I'm an idiot. :blush: You're right.

I've actually never taken 8 LRs.  I always stopped at 6.  I had forgotten you could even take that many.  Probably because I dropped the Silver Towers in the Thousand Sons list to 4-6.

So, there is probably more value in the CSM formation that I was giving it credit for.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:24 am 
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I'd consider 8 Chaos Land Raiders to be well and away superior to 4 loyal Land Raiders, even accounting for the 50% more you spend on the 8 Chaos Land Raiders. It takes 3 formations firing on them killing 1 each to break them. Or killing 4 of them with a single formation to break them. They're not very hard to drop blast markers from, given their good Initiative value. And each loss costs them less then the loss of loyalist Land Raiders.

In fact.. If they advance on a squad of loyal Land Raiders they should be able to off half the squad and leave it with only 1 functioning Raider (Due to blast markers) meanwhile the loyals will only off 1 of them if they get first shot, leaving them with 6 functional Land Raiders. Sounds like a sweet deal to me all the way around! Even accounting for the more blast markers to break/damage.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:24 am 
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If the land raiders could take the land raiders upgrade how much should 8 land raiders cost?

And I still reckon now is the time to change them to FF4+ (and even if the non published CSM list can't be changed they do after all have diferent names).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:45 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 May 2006 (04:24))
If the land raiders could take the land raiders upgrade how much should 8 land raiders cost?

And I still reckon now is the time to change them to FF4+ (and even if the non published CSM list can't be changed they do after all have diferent names).

I like the upgrade being 100 points each. Each unit added gives you effectively 2 more blast-markers to break the unit (unless it's replacing Transport options, even then they're MUCH harder to kill then Rhinos and far better). The only reason I have any problem with the 'Land Raiders Only' formation is that you're paying for the Transport capacity of the unit and yet you don't get to USE it. In the case of adding Land Raiders to the Land Raider formation you're actually making the formation larger, so the extra blast-markers to break it and suchlike I'd consider worth the slightly higher price. On the other hand, when adding them to Dev Squads you have to add 3 of them before they gain any extra durability in a blastmarker sense. The advantage there is that it's much harder to off the Land Raiders before they reach their target then it is to kill Rhinos.

This probably sounds fairly silly, but to me the upgrade price feels right. It's just the squad-cost that bothers me. And I'm all for FF 4+, given how much firepower they have. Not quite as good as a Leman Russ but certainly better then a Razorback by quite a lot (In fact they're as shooty as THREE razorbacks, each.)
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:51 am 
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So you would say 700+ (775 based on a base cost of 375) for 8? If only I had some accomplaces and a decent internet I could try all this stuff :(

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:56 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 May 2006 (06:51))
So you would say 700+ (775 based on a base cost of 375) for 8? If only I had some accomplaces and a decent internet I could try all this stuff :(

That sounds about right to me, yeah. That'd make them roughly 30% more expensive then the Chaos Land Raiders but significantly more resilient to being broken/hacked-down. Which feels about right to me. They're as good at shooting, as good at surviving being shot at, and better at avoiding being broken/suppressed. It might make them too good, but I don't think it would over-all. It'd make them a very nice heavy support formation to hunt enemy tank-companies (Leman Russ come to mind in this case!)
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yme-loc
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:12 am 
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I would have no problem with Land Raiders having FF4+ and having a points reduction to 350pts.

I also see no real problems with the following

Predators 250pts
Vindicators 30cm (why all this 25cm ?) and 250pts

I dont think however that a formation of dreadnoughts is a good idea - its just too tempting to stick in thunderhawks and assault with and marine air assaults dont need any help!

I do think the Landing craft needs to be 400pts though.

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Honda
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Regarding the transport option for LR's, since there has never been a restriction on using the LR to transport any type of 40K SM unit, does anyone know why this restriction was added in EA?

How big a deal would it be to allow LR's to transport Terminators, Scouts (not saying that would be a good idea), tacticals, and devastators?

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