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More firepower for marines
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 am 
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As a reminder, heres a thread.

The easist way to get more firepower is a points break on the vehicles (and points increase on the landing craft). Is it something else?

Incidentally couple of chaps in the uk have played a game or two with the ability to add 4 more stands to a formation for double its base cost (so, say, 8 dev stands for 500pts or 10 tac stands for 600pts) to see what effect larger formations have in survivability and the like. They said they would report back when I got to the UK.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:59 pm 
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Well, 8 dev stands certainly would produce a bunch of shots, but it might be a situation where 2x a weak amount is still a weak amount. Also, if marine formations start getting extra stands, then they really lose some of their character. That said, I'm all for point breaks on the vehicle formations.

I do wonder where the marines list should go. Can marines ever hope to out-shoot anybody, even at 10 or 16 shots per formation? Their to-hit values are still pretty anemic. Another question is "should SMs be able to outshoot another army?" Maybe the fixes should stick to assaults, where SM's usually win their games (in this edition, anyway). [Of course, since SMs are supposed to be good at everything, it could be argued that they probably ought to be able to put a useful amount of hurt on an enemy simply by shooting at it] I dunno.

I guess I have just gotten to the point where I view marine shooting as a BM delivery system, rather than a method to reduce the size/strength of an enemy formation.

Maybe they could be given some short-ranged (15cm) extra shooting attack (AP5+/AT6+). That way, they're rewarded for closing to support range, but are left open to retaliation unless they can actually break the target (as a result of their shooting, or by retaining then assaulting). Or maybe they shouldn't get anything besides some bonuses in assault resolution (or not get some of the penalties in assaults due to outnumbering or BMs).
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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:14 pm 
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I like the idea that the marines should be a bit more shooty. Adjusting their tank costs is likely to be a good place to start. But ultimately the Marines' greatest strength is in the short-range area fluff-wise. The IG is the Emperor's Sledgehammer. They pound enemy lines into dust and engage in long-range firepower. The Marines are more like a surgical insturment. Striking where and when it's best for them to do so to win... Now, that said, the Space Marines currently have what is likely the single most mobile army in the game, and one of the best to engage in assaults due to that.

I DO think that the Marines need some longer-range firepower. They currently have very short range, even their 'long range' weapons are at best perhaps half the range of the long-range weapons from other armies. While in 40K scale that works fine (Since a 72" range compared to a 48" range isn't THAT big a bonus), in Epic it makes a very large difference. Take a Russ Company against a Predator Formation. The Russes can move up to 75cm away, open up with battle cannons, and the Predators have to Double just to get inside fire-range on the Russ Company, making them much less likely to kill anything. Is price breaks the answer? Maybe. I'd rather like to see a few longer range Space Marine units added to them, if only to give them a bit better of a firing-line. I'm just not really sure exactly what kind of units.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:58 pm 
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I agree that shooting should still be a second choice for SMs compared to assault, but it should be more viable than it is now.

If you notice, many of the proposed SM changes revolve around giving various price breaks or buffs to shooty units.

Cheaper armor.
Faster Vindicators.
Faster Attack Bikes.
More access to Dreadnoughts (though they are really all-rounders)

I pretty much favor all the above suggestions (though still not a truly separate Dread formation).

In addition, I think that the Pred Destructor could get a FF upgrade because I think it's inferior to the Annihilator and its weaponry should really be able to put a mass quantity of lead downrange.  As it does not appear in the Chaos list (different pattern) I think that tweak can be done painlessly.

I have been considering the idea of buffing the Hunter's to-hit values.  I think it's pretty much considered the weakest of the ground flak units for the points but I don't think it's way out of line.  An increase of +1 to hit would give it a nice boost both as an AA unit and for ground support.  Even if avilability is expanded to armor formations, they are still limited in number and the increase shouldn't cause balance issues.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:03 pm 
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Maybe allow SMs (infantry only?) to ignore the -1 to-hit modifier when doubling. That would help on typical moves, but keep the sustain-fire values within reason.
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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:44 pm 
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Generally speaking I think the marine infantry is pretty good as it is. My main beef with the Space Marine army in E:A has always been the vehicles so I can definitely subscribe to Neals list of suggestions. The Vindicator in particular begs for some upgrading.

I'm probably alone on this one bit I've always wanted to see the Vindicator getting some kind of short range TK ability. Although that would be out of tune with the other Demolisher cannons in the Imperial army the Marines could use more TK IMO.
I've always felt that a direct hit at shorter range (espacially if you use older models) should be pretty devastating to most types of armor. There's several interesting ways to do this. 1BP TK might work or just a regular shot. If it gets a TK shot I wouldn't mind getting the range reduced further as long as the speed is increased to keep up with the rest of the army. Balanced or not I think it would give the Vindicator it's own distinctive flavour in the Marine arsenal.

Maybe allow SMs (infantry only?) to ignore the -1 to-hit modifier when doubling. That would help on typical moves, but keep the sustain-fire values within reason.

Interesting idea. Given the Space Marine's good training you could certainly imagine how they would be able to aim more accurrately when moving compared to regular troops. I have no idea how big an impact this would have on their play balance though.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:12 pm 
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Quote (Warmaster Nice @ 17 May 2006 (18:44))
I'm probably alone on this one bit I've always wanted to see the Vindicator getting some kind of short range TK ability. Although that would be out of tune with the other Demolisher cannons in the Imperial army the Marines could use more TK IMO.
I've always felt that a direct hit at shorter range (espacially if you use older models) should be pretty devastating to most types of armor. There's several interesting ways to do this. 1BP TK might work or just a regular shot. If it gets a TK shot I wouldn't mind getting the range reduced further as long as the speed is increased to keep up with the rest of the army. Balanced or not I think it would give the Vindicator it's own distinctive flavour in the Marine arsenal.

Well, I kind of like your idea too.  :)

A, say, 15cm TK4+ shot (or 1BP TK, no indirect fire) would indeed give the Vindicator a very distinctive role in the Marine army, and a crucial one at that. It would also give an alternative to Warhounds as a weapon against other WE. Really, this is a brilliant idea.

Vindicator excepted, I'm not sure Marines need to get more firepower IF:

- their tanks get a points break;
- ATSKNF is modified so as to make Marines better in assaults.

Once these changes are implemented, Marines should be on par with the other armies out there.

BTW, has the Rules Review gone the way of the Feral Orks or what?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:21 pm 
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Honestly I like their infantry as-is. The only thing I can think of which really doesn't feel right to me is their total lack (Or near-total lack) of weapons with a range longer then 45 cm. In the entire army there are only 3 weapons with a range more then 45 cm. The Hunter, the Thunderhawk's battle-cannon and a Whirlwind while using Indirect Fire. This really doesn't feel right at all to me. Space Marines are supposed to  be an elite strike-force. What kind of elite strike force has so little ability to take out enemies at extreme range? Or at least damage them.

I'd love to see them get some kind of new vehicle, long range purpose-built firing platform for cracking enemy fortifications and tanks. Maybe something like this:

"Boomer Missile Tank
Type: AV, Speed: 30cm, Armour: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 6+
Weapons:
Guided Melta-Missiles, Range: 90cm, AP4+/AT4+, Ignore Cover."

A purpose-built long-range firing weapon. Used to thin out hordes of enemies or soften up armored companies before the Marines move in. Think about it, if you have only 1000 people total in your army, then every loss is .1% of your total strength. Logically you're not going to advance into enemy tanks unless you have SOMETHING backing you up to keep them busy. Hence, a long-range guided missile system. I picture it  being remote-controlled by a Space Marine inside the tank, but they could just as easily be automatic controlled (Just feels a bit odd to me, since the Imperium has such dislike over quasi-intelligent machines).
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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm 
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For vindicator. I would definitely not put it 1BP TK(1). Most likely not even TK, but perhaps MW3+. This would also require to change the the name for the cannon or change the stats of the Leman Russ Demolisher as well (which would be hard).


Well you could say that the Demolisher cannon on a Vindicator carries special armour piercing Melta Warhead shells. These shells are difficult to manufacture and thus only supplied to the Adeptus Astartes and not the Imperial Guard? ???

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Suvarov454
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:15 am 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (19:21))
Honestly I like their infantry as-is. The only thing I can think of which really doesn't feel right to me is their total lack (Or near-total lack) of weapons with a range longer then 45 cm. In the entire army there are only 3 weapons with a range more then 45 cm. The Hunter, the Thunderhawk's battle-cannon and a Whirlwind while using Indirect Fire. This really doesn't feel right at all to me. Space Marines are supposed to ?be an elite strike-force. What kind of elite strike force has so little ability to take out enemies at extreme range? Or at least damage them.

While I agree that the Marine Armor needs some help, and that the Marines list doesn't have enough winning strategies to choose from (Air Assault, Drop Pods, and very little else), I am mildly annoyed with this statement. ?

Let's ignore initiative rules that make it very risky to try sustain or advance orders. ?The only things in the Ork army with a 60 cm range are Gargants, Super Stompas, and Oddboyz and there is no Indirect weapons at all. ?As for 45 cm range... there's Gargants, Big Gunz that don't mob up, Stompas that everyone agrees cost too much, War Engines that are formation upgrades, and the Blitz Brigade. ?OK, so the Blitzers are very nice; a Big BB compares very well to a Devastator detachment for CC and firing, but it trades FF, armor, and cover for extra mobility that can't be shot away.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Boyz: they're cheap enough to get lots of them to survive casualties, you can't keep blast markers on the Warbands, and the list is flexible enough so you can do anything with them. ?In general, however, Marines outshoot them, and Marine armor and TSKNF means that they ignore hits. ?By all means, follow Neal's recommendations to make Marine armor more attractive. ?If absolutely necessary, give them a new tank with long range. ?

Just please stop saying how poor they are at shooting... they are not the army that's worst at shooting.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:46 am 
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Quote (Suvarov454 @ 17 May 2006 (22:15))
Just please stop saying how poor they are at shooting... they are not the army that's worst at shooting.

Well, I disagree. Orks may have terrible to-hit values, but they have (or at least can have) a whole lot of those terrible to-hit values.

SMs have neither quality nor quantity.

Orks have quantity but no quality. Thats why I believe orks are ahead of SMs when it comes to shooting.

To be honest, tyranids are the worst at shooting, but then again, they don't need shooting to do their thing.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:32 am 
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Quote (Suvarov454 @ 18 May 2006 (04:15))
Don't get me wrong, I love my Boyz: they're cheap enough to get lots of them to survive casualties, you can't keep blast markers on the Warbands, and the list is flexible enough so you can do anything with them. ?In general, however, Marines outshoot them, and Marine armor and TSKNF means that they ignore hits.

Marines outshooting Orks? I wouldn't say that.

- Marine infantry shoots at 45cm, Orks at only 30cm, so Marines have a (small) range advantage indeed. But,

- Orks shoot at AP6+/AT6+, Marines at AP5+/AT6+, hardly a major difference;

- Orks get more shots for the same price. At 500 points Marines get 2 Devastator formations (16 AP5+/AT6+ shots) Orks get a 'Uge mob (30 AP6+/AT6+ shots);

- Orks usually ignore the first few BM thanks to their Grots and remove those BM more easily than Marines thanks to their numerous Nobz. Marines have ATSKNF, which is probably overestimated in my opinion. Even so, Let's call it a draw for BM management: both are hard to suppress and to break;

- Finally, Orks can take Oddboyz and that makes a world of difference. For a mere +150 points, the above 'Uge mob can get either 3*TK(D3) shots or 6BP MW, both at 60cm. AND you can splash Oddboyz in most Orks formations, giving the Orks VERY good mid-range shooting capacity, much better than what the poor Marines can manage anyway.

The Ork list is much more flexible than the Marine list and allows for more strategies. Marines do lack some punch in the shooting department.

I don't think they should ever outshoot anybody (except at short range, but this represented by assaults), but I do think they should have a few more options (see Warmaster Nice's or Ilushia's suggestions. Both are good, I think, even though I really prefer the TK Vindicator idea).
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