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Space Wolves
Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:59 pm 
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Here's an army list a friend of mine came up with along with some help from me. It's posted here with his permission. If anyone wants any information or has questions, feel free to ask! I will warn you this is very much a beta-version of the list. It's got everything in it, but it's certain to need balancing. Keep in mind this list essentially has no play-testing behind it as yet, any play-testing and feedback you folks give would be vastly appreciated!
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:56 pm 
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1. Too many special rules. Most "variant lists" have only one or two. This is a good thing. So some cutting is needed.
- Pack Leaders can be spelled out in list. Not leaders allowed, but take one leader (can't have multiple I assume, same as other marines).
- I'd drop the true grit in general. That ability in 40k shouldn't have any effect in epic scale.
- Will not teleport is easy to drop as you only need to not write the ability to data sheet. And you have no terminators, but Wolf Guard Terminator ;).
- There is a bucket loads of rules in stats... Remember that most special rules in 40k don't need to be represented in epic.

There's several reasons for the special rules. Most notably is that, Space Wolves are one of the most non-Codex chapters around. I really wanted to portray the differences between them and standard Space Marines in this, they're not really organized like normal Marines at all. In terms of True Grit, this probably should be dropped, yes. Probably should be downgraded to just being slightly better in melee. The idea is that they can use both bolter and CCW in melee, thus their 'basic' units are about as good as Assault Marines when it comes to melee.

2. Don't give them SR6 for any reason, thanks.

I pushed to reduce the number of Venerable Dreads to a 0-2 limit for this reason. The idea is that the Venerable Dreadnoughts are very very old, some of them many thousands of years old, and as a result they'll have sufficient skill to interperate the enemy's movements and coordinate with the leaders. That and we couldn't come up with a reasonable way to portray their depth of tactical knowledge beyond doing something like this. It likely isn't fair and will probably be changed.

3. Character costs would be nice to be listed in the tables as well. Not fun to go to stats to find it.

That one's an editing error -.- I only helped make this one, and aparently failed to notice that we didn't have the actual costs put into the proper place.

4. I don't know 40k space wolves list. But is there a reason why SW have dread formation, when normal marines can't have them?

This one's actually a fluff-based idea. Wolves maintain a large number of Dreadnoughts compared to most other chapters, as well as having some of the oldest Dreadnoughts in existance. The Fang is supposed to have catacombs containing many dreadnoughts, far larger numbers then most other chapters, so it felt appropriate to give them a dreadnought-specific formation.

5. You have downgraded the costs of things from marine list (eg. land raiders). I would say that thats not very good thing. At least if the vault is aimed at. And it does create a discrepancy with others.

This probably should be fixed as well. These actually are the suggestions I had as cost-alterations for the actual basic Space Marines list, but there's no reason we can't fix that one.

6. Frost blade. TK? Are you really sure about this. IMO should be MW.

On this one: Originally we had the Frost Blade as MW Extra Attacks (+2). I decided it should be TK(1) and 1 extra attack as a way to differentiate it from a standard Power Weapon. They're supposed to be significantly more powerful then a normal Power Weapon after all. This probably should be changed as well, but the idea was it won't actually let you kill more stands of the enemy, just make killing those stands easier.

As I said, this is very much a Beta list. I'm sure a lot of people are going to feel it's too out there for Epic. And it probably is compared to the basic Space Marines group. But then, the Space Wolves never struck me as a group who felt very 'Codex'. They're famous (infamous) for virtually complete disreguard of the Codex Astartes especially in force-organization and I really wanted to make that felt in the list. Some of the special rules probably should be stripped out. The 'Will Not Teleport' bit is mostly there to confirm that yes, you can't teleport them. And no, it's not a typo on their price sheet. There's probably some sever imbalances in the actual game-play side of things as well (which is why I'm asking for input to begin with!) and it'd be cool to see if anyone has any suggestions for how they might implement similar things? Or if they would?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:30 pm 
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On the Venerable Dreadnoughts. Yes, they are a lot better then standard Space Marine Ven Dreads. Standard Marine Ven-dreads basically are just harder to kill and gain some vet-skill. Space Wolves ven-dreads are essentially 1000+ year-old Wolf Lords in Dreadnoughts. They have better stats, harder to kill, and the Ancient and Wise rule which represents their massive tactical expertise gained from millinia of warfare. I figure that's worth a 1-point bonus in Epic at least given that they've been known to out-tactic even Thousand Sons in the past.

As to the TK on Frost Blades, probably not the best option. I'm just unsure how to represent them. They are better then standard power-weapons, for certain. Might just move them back down to Macro-Weapons. Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal. Only one base per formation can have one, and even then it's only one attack. But fluff-wise it's likely a good idea that it only be a Macro-Weapon. Was just looking for some way to approximate their bonuses. Probably not nearly detailed enough to do that accurately. So that will likely be changed in the future, especially if others express issue with it.
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Honda
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:17 pm 
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Illusia,

A few comments and thoughts:

1. What is the purpose of the list? Is it intended for club/friendly use or do you aspire to get it vetted by the general community?

2. I would caution you to be careful about using 40K fluff to justify the little goodies you'd like to see in a list. As was pointed out earlier, a variant list usually has a couple special rules to differentiate it from the "parent" list and that Epic is not 40K, so you won't see a lot of direct "porting" of abilities and features from the 40K system.

3. Also it is important to keep in mind that any new list needs to fit within the "existing" framework and strive to maintain the delicate equilibrium of the overall system, not a simple thing to do by any means.

So, kudos for taking on the effort and enjoy the process of having your list being scrutinized as it can be quite a learning experience.

:;):

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:45 pm 
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Think of how chaos compares to the imperial marine. Nothing in the special rules pertains much to the basic trooper (talking about demons etc) yet its structure is very different and otherwise identical squadrons behave somewhat differently.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:44 pm 
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Some of the special rules can be simply relegated to the Unit Data Sheets or formation.  Specifically, Will Not Teleport,  and True Grit are just unit changes.  The Leader requirement is just a change to the army org and can be included in the cost of the formation.

I don't think Acute Senses is needed.  They already get a boost to CC.  If someone teleports within that range, it's almost always to CC anyway.  I would think the feel would be more like a "teleport scrambler" in play.

No Matter the Odds is okay.  Several people have suggested similar mods for TSKNF.

Headstrong is tricky.  I'd have to see it in play before I comment on it.

I agree with earlier comments on the SR6.

I also agree with objections to the preponderance of TK weapons.  There simply isn't a weapon that a normal marine wields that should be in that category.  As a bit of design philosophy, the MW attack of a SM character is not one power weapon but all the weapon upgrades of the leader's retinue and is also assumed to include significantly superior tactical ability in addition to raw weapon power.  The only infantry with a TK weapon is a Daemon Prince and that is controversial.  Even the Eldar Avatar doesn't have TK.

In general, I think it's trying too hard to reflect the 40K SW Codex.  I understand the options are included in 40K and it is especially difficult for dedicated 40K players to come to terms with cutting some of their favorite toys.  But in the scale of Epic, a lot of the variations that exist in 40K would mean little.  The goal is to make an Epic army that has the appropriate feel rather than recreate a scaled up 40K force.  Acute Senses is a good example of something that might make a difference at squad level but would have virtually no effect on a pitched battle like Epic is supposed to represent, and could be essentially ignored.


Just eyeballing the points, I think they are probably a bit low, especially the armor.  With TSKNF, a modest increase in the number of units makes a very big difference in durability.  Every Long Fang stand having 4 attacks (2 of which are MW) and the ability for every one of those to be Sniper attacks is definitely in need of another look.

===

And on a side note, as the army champion for the Thousand Sons list, "Die, you traitorous lackeys of a false emperor!" :p

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:11 pm 
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Reviewing the list myself again, I think there's actually a couple of errors which need fixing in the design. Specifically things which appear to have been reduced prior to the version I posted being sent to me. As I said, at least I think I said, this one's a joint-effort of myself and another friend.

I'd kinda like to see this one turned into at least an experimental list. I doubt it'd ever gain the prestige to become a real list, but eh, it's a goal. Some of the notes were I had originally intended to up the cost on Long Fangs a bit more. I believe when we were originally starting we had them at 350 instead of 300, I'm not entirely sure why they were cut back down before I got sent this version.

The predators probably need a cost-increase. Does 350 points for 6 sound reasonable? That puts them at a bit less then a Leman Russ for each, they'll have weaker armor, but the potential to be air-dropped anywhere they need to be, and be significantly harder to break then a Russ company.

The Strat-Rating increase was part of this list from when it got started. Dropping it actually does sound like a good idea. Originally there was no limit on the number of Venerable Dreads in the force, which felt like a fantastically bad idea. It's not hard to spread out enough of them to assure atleast one will survive a full four turns after all.

I'll talk to my friend sometime this afternoon, hopefully have another version up tomorrow for you folks to look at. Maybe one which feels a bit more playable and a bit less like an instant-win or something similar.  I do thank you all for the time to actually look at the list though!  :;):
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:37 pm 
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The predators probably need a cost-increase. Does 350 points for 6 sound reasonable?


I would aim for 400 to start.

Even if you think that the core SM list Preds should be dropped to 250 for 4, that same per-unit cost for 6 would be 375.  On top of that because small formations are their own weakness you have effectively increased the per-unit effectiveness by putting them in a larger formation.


If you are strongly interested in getting this into the Experimental Rules vault, I would suggest that you emphasize the army organization more than detailed stats changes.  The organization really does make a dramatic difference in the way that an army feels in play even if stats are nearly identical.

Look at the White Scars list as an example.  Even as a non-codex chapter it really has no new units.  All it does is add Walker ability to their bikes.  The other changes are strictly based on army organization.

Similarly, the BT list only has a few new units - Neophytes, the Emperor's Champion, and the Thawk Annihilator - with all the other changes being organizational.

Both those lists definitely have a play style and feel that is distinct from the Codex list.  It's not radically different as they are all still Space Marines, but it is different.

My gut feeling is that you could capture the Space Wolves' intended flavor just fine with 2-3 new units, minor stat changes to a few other units, and Pack-based formations.

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Bombot
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:47 pm 
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I have to say that the Space Wolves list is the one chapter that I believe is worth developing, seeing as they aren?t based on the codex at all.

I agree that SR6 should go.  The dreadnought formation though is a good idea if you want to make dreadnoughts stand out a bit, seeing as it?s often suggested as a way to make them more playable for the existing codex list.  

Point costs should not be cheaper than standard marine costs without good reason.  So get those land raider and predator point costs back up!  I know people moan about the costs of land raiders but making yours cheaper isn?t doing the codex marines any favours  :p

I have a deeper look in a bit.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:01 pm 
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Of all the Space Marine chapters out there, the Space Wolves always struck me as the most... Different from the norm. If you look at them, both fluff-wise and personality wise, they're very very different from any other chapter. I admit the Black Templars are probably about as different for the most part. But even they have a lot of similarities to the basic Codex space-marines. They field larger units, and have no scouts or dedicated dev-squads, but their over-all style still remains similar. Their Crusader units mount heavy weapons, and suchlike. The wolves don't. None of their standard foot-troops mount heavy weapons except Long Fangs. Most of the rest of it sounds good... I'm not entirely sure how I'd go about expressing the Wolves properly with very few changes as their over-all combat doctrine is much different. Their standard squads mount no heavy weapons at all. Their scouts are not like normal Space Marine scouts either in terms of their place in the organization or their style.

I'll see what I can do about this one. And yes, the vehicle prices will need to change, and will do so before I post a new list. Thanks for all the input so far. If anyone has any idea how to make The Shroud work I'd be really appreciative of that input. I've been struggling with how to make the power both functional and feel unique, since unlike basically every other power in the game, it's entire function is defensive not offensive. I've considered a few ideas for it, but inevitably they all end up either feeling too close to The Gate (Which is itself based on the Warp Spiders' idea of 'appear from nowhere' strikes) or simply too powerful (Originally it was a one-sided -1 to enemy shooting with the only drawback being that the Rune Priest's base couldn't shoot back).
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Bombot
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:44 pm 
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I believe the Space Wolves are the only chapter never to have touched the codex.  Some might differ a lot now but they adopted at least some of it at some point.

Is turning down allies something that the Space Wolves are renowned for?  I haven?t seen a Space Wolf codex in a while so I don?t know.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:09 pm 
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The turning down of allies is more a 'feel' of the army then anything else. More then virtually any other army, the Space Wolves are willing to go out of their way to circumvent the normal Imperial war-machine. Especially in the fluff and similar writing. Similarly in normal 40K there's no actual rules against Black Templars having allies other then that their allies may not  be psykers unless they're also Grey Knights. But in Epic: Armageddon they get no allies, to represent their extreme individualism as apart from the group. Space Wolves are rather similar. Unlike Ultramarines they don't tend to work inside the Imperial War-Machine to the same degree of other Chapters. They DO side with Imperial groups, but this is on a more large-scale basis (IE two players playing separate armies) then on a 'Call for help' basis, is my understanding.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Space Wolves
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:37 pm 
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Ok. Here we go. Taking in the info you folks have given me, here's the second version of the Army list. Hot off the... Uh... Um... Well, hot off the something. Fresh for your disection! Have fun  :;):
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