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Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:54 pm

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Quote (Xisor @ 11 April 2006 (09:29))

Also note that this is a case of five neutron Blaster approximating the effect of a macro weapon. It's not a single weapon here. If you look at *only* a single Neutron Blaster, then no, it doesn't compare to a Multi-Melta. Compare five highly mobile and easily positioned Neutron Blasters against the single multi-melta and I think it's a different story.

I was trying to look for precident somewhere... the closest thing that comes to mind is IG storm troopers.

Don't they all carry plasma guns?

A plasma gun in 40K is S7 and AP2 (termy's don't even get saves in 40K) they are also rapid fire weapons, so 2 shots at 12" range.

Now, in 40K, the most you could have is 2 plasma guns in the unit of 5 models (doesn't count a sergent's plasma pistol which is only 12" range in 40K).

In E:A The storm troopers are labled with plasma guns for the unit and I believe it gets an AP5+/AT5+ as a result.

To tie into Xisor's point, maybe that's because the IG Storm Troopers only have 2 models hitting on a 4+.

I suppose there's an argument to be made about 5 models hitting on 4+ with S5 weapons and AP3...

Where I grow concerned is against vehicles. S5 just isn't going to hurt a Land Raider - no matter how hard you try, no matter how many shots you have. I think this was the heart of Hena's point.

Thus - for me, MW doesn't seem right here.

Also, they have a 12" range. That's akin to FF only range. I don't see these guys having a ranged attack at all in FF - unless we want to create an abstraction.

So I could see something like FF4+ as a place to start. Hmm... speedy FF units.

The low unit count, low armor and the *wipeout if leader dies rule* seems to make the Vespids a very *one use* or *comicaze* type of formation.

Perhaps I'm not the visionary I need to be on this one, but I'm struggling to see the value in these guys to an E:A Tau force.

As an upgrade - the goal is to never get into H-t-H with the tau, any significant inclusion of a good FF upgrade would mean that other formations may actually start charging in E:A - something we've wanted to avoid encouraging. Lets face it - the Vespids are not the first formation that should be good if not great by a pure conversion perspective between 40K and Epic. We've taken a stance to artificially lower the FF values across the board. Would the Vespids violate that?

The Vespids gun range is so tiny that they really don't deserve a ranged shot... but if we did artificially give them a ranged shot - surely it wouldn't be greater than 15cm.

If we did give them an artificial ranged shot, it would probably be AP only as no other S5 weapon has a AT value. The first time we see AT values is with 40K S6 weaponry. So, do we have a need for a really fast moving AP only 15cm ranged gun?

Seems like we have plenty of that already.

Not to mention - we don't have the models, even if the formation did serve the E:A Tau a purpose. With the Sniper Drones, they atleast deliver something in the form of a stand alone formation or an upgrade to existing formations that aligns with our vision of the E:A Tau shooting doctrine.

Sorry - I'm trying, I'm just struggling with the E:A Vespid thing.

Anyone - please, provide guidance.

Cheers,

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semajnollissor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:27 pm

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One of the problems with the Vespid is that they dont have a bunch of other Vespid units that come along with them, like the kroot and the human auxillaries do.

Still, they should be included in the list, if only because they are "canon" tau units (unlike most of the FW things that are also in the epic list). Also, people making the switch from 40k to epic will be confused as to why they aren't in the list, especially given the 40k list will predate the official Epic Tau list.

I think that they almost have to be either their own small formation (4-6 throw-away stands) or as an upgrade to Crisis or firewarrior formations.

Of course, if FW doesn't deem them worthy of models, their inclusion is almost moot.

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Xisor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:57 pm

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Right, fair enough on MW, it does support them being better against Infantry than twin Plasma Pistols.

Anyhow, reasons for inclusions and secondly, ways to include:

Reason They are noted in the fluff as being crucial support units to the Tau. Part of their cadres
Way Make them an upgrade to Tau formations. The precedent is such that they'd only have Small Arms. Adding them in as a strictly FF unit is folly. Adding a ranged attack breaks precedent *but* it accurately represents what they do. They support forces at very close range. They're there to do what the Tau do. They *also* provide a very strong bonus in FF situations.

The version I originally proposed works well. It does it very well. AP4+ and FF4+: Quite simple. They keep up with Crisis suits, they provide an ample extra volley of fire, they provide a capable ability in engagements should problems arise.

I don't see the problem. The only added thing I'd propose is an AT6+ ability. Autocannons get an AT ability and *they* can't hurt Land Raiders either!

Personally, they can be both an independent formation and an upgrade. Going by the fluff, the should.

It's quite simple.

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:12 pm

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Quote (Xisor @ 11 April 2006 (12:57))

The only added thing I'd propose is an AT6+ ability. Autocannons get an AT ability and *they* can't hurt Land Raiders either! ?

Personally, they can be both an independent formation and an upgrade. Going by the fluff, the should.

It's quite simple.

Xisor,

As far as AT goes - the Autocannon is S7 weapon in 40K. There's precident in E:A to make S6 weapons and greater have an AT value in E:A.

The vespids gun is only S5. They can only hurt 40K light vehicles on a roll of a 5 and the best armor they can have a chance at hurting is armor 11 - a rhino. They can't hurt the front armor of a chimera or a dreadnought at all.

There is no precident for S5 weapons in E:A having an AT value at all.

I'm afraid I would have to be against the Vespids weapon getting any kind of an AT value in E:A due to established precidents in E:A conversion as well as meaningful use in 40K core design.

Of course - abstractions exist. So for every rule - there's room for exceptions. I jus think you have a hard sell getting this to be an AT value weapon though.

On the other hand - I think the S6 Rail Rifle in the Tau E:A do deserve the AT6+ value due to the established conversion precidents of S6 weapons in E:A. Also, there's the fact that they can actually hurt the chimera and dreadnoughts front armor... but I digress.

+ + +

Back to your email, if the vespids were tested as independent formations as well as upgrades, I wouldn't be opposed.

Regards to FF4+, I'm with you and could support it. Regards to a range of AP4+. My personal opinion - I think we are back in the realm of significant abstraction. You'd have to be prepared to defend "why" the need for the abstraction.

Cheers,

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Xisor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:34 pm

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Tactica,

Fair enough on the AT. I'm still relatively new to this. They won't, however, be tested unless we can come up with a basis for them. If we can thrash that out, then testing will swiftly follow, then debate etc. I can't test without...anything. And certainly not because my results would be quite skewed by 1- an infancy of Epic Experience and 2- a lack of experience with or against the Tau list.

On that basis, there'll be no evidence from my end for a while.

However, AP4+ *can* be done. Why? Well, 15cm range for one. It's not too big a break of an abstraction or precedent. Secondly: It allows the Vespids to work well and earn a place in the Epic system. Thirdly: It allows their use as both an independent formation and as support for most cadres[as is described in the fluff].

If we reject the Vespids now, then I suspect that there is a dangerous problem hiding deep within the Tau list. We *know* they shouldn't be good in engagements, but if a typical 40k game is an engagement, Tau should rock quite heartily in a FF. They don't though. A deliberate abstraction[and a worthy one IMO]. I feel that to continue down that path, the Vespids[to act as they do in the fluff] really *should* gain a ranged attack. Fourthly: Fusion blasters get a ranged attack, in 40k, they shouldn't [though a counter argument here could be the Crisis suit 'bounce' effect/ability from jetpacks to boost range to an effective 18"].

Really, I don't see the problem if it allows them to act they should.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 am

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Well ... hopefully F/W will do some models ...

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Steele

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:18 am

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Quote (Hena @ 11 April 2006 (21:37))

My suggestion, based on Xisors

Vespids ?
Type ? ? ? ? ? ? Infantry
Speed ? ? ? ? ? 30cm
Armour ? ? ? ? ?6+
Close Combat 6+
Firefight ? ? ? ?5+

Weapon ? ? ? ?Neutron Blaster
Range ? ? ? ? ? (15cm)
Firepower ? ? ?(small arms)
Notes ? ? ? ? ? +1 Extra Attack

Notes:
Jump Packs

This could be their own formation of 6 or 8 and upgrade of 4 for FW.

This would make them no really better than Human Auxilia, besides Armor,Movement and the EA+1. I?d rather see them having FF4+ but no extra Attack. Thus they would combine well with Kroot statwise. Formation Size could be something in the Range of Firewarriors (8), same goes for Upgrade Size (4).
Points like all Core Auxilia - 175 Points and 75 to 100 for the Upgrade.

Cheers!
Steele

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Steele

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:50 am

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Quote (Hena @ 12 April 2006 (09:20))

IMO 5+ and EA+1 is better than 4+ (as you have possibility of hitting twice) *shrug*.

You don?t know my Dice Luck/Unluck. But true, statistically.

Steele

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tneva82

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:16 am

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Quote (Hena @ 12 April 2006 (08:20))

IMO 5+ and EA+1 is better than 4+ (as you have possibility of hitting twice) *shrug*.

Chance of hitting two target AND having better chance to score 1 hit more.

2 attacks at 5+ vs 1 attack at 4+ is no-brainer really. 2 attacks all the way(if you want to have the more effective combination).

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Xisor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:24 am

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I know it breaks precedent horrendously, but to actually work as really described in the fluff they should, like you've done with Tau battl----everything, the FF value should go down and the ranged attacks should appear. Otherwise it's one condition for all the Tau units, and one for the rest. IMO, if the vespids are to loose ranged attack in favour of FF ability, then all the Tau units should gain their 'proper' FF ability.

If you don't do this, then you are effictively engineering the vespids out of being useful. They should complement a Cadre's attacks 'close in'. However, Tau units have an artificially reduced FF ability, so using Vespids to 'augment' this is more like using Vespids to bring them back to what they should be able to do! It seems quite counter intuitive to do this IMO. If the FF is reduced in favour of ranged attacks, then Vespids should benefit from this thinking too.

Xisor

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Steele

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:09 am

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Quote (tneva82 @ 12 April 2006 (10:16))

Quote (Hena @ 12 April 2006 (08:20))

IMO 5+ and EA+1 is better than 4+ (as you have possibility of hitting twice) *shrug*.

But do they deserve 2 Attacks? What supports it? Fluff?
The chance to hit is worser with 5+ than 4+. Only the 2 attacks augment it statistically. But anyway at 8 Models, if we take it at 175 Points then each would be 21.8 Points. So at 25 Points they come to FW standard of 200 Points. If we take them to 30/35 Points they hit the Road with 240/280 Points - almost at Pathfinder Niveau with upgrade - are they worth that much?

Cheers!
Steele

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tau Empires - Vespid Stingwings

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:35 am

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2 attacks/to hit values. I see lots of confusion over this. The way I think you port things over is you look at how effective something is and then give it the stats to describe that. SO you wouldn't need a justification for 2 attacks, rather you just need to hit the target number (overall chance).
So if 4+ is too little you could try 5+ x2 which instead of giving a 1/2 chance of hitting gives 5/9 and so on.

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