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consequences of the new 40k codex

Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:43 pm

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Quote (Xisor @ 09 April 2006 (16:20))

3- And this is the crucial one, they should be included as an upgrade to Tau Cadres.

The Codex explicitly states that the Vespids fit so well within the Empire, so integrated, that they are pretty much an extension of the Shas Caste. They are a 'true' auxilliary in the sense that they are 'Tau' in all but race, unlike the Kroot.

It also says they are a common addition to Cadres with a high proportion of Crisis suits. Seems they'd be a perfectly viable upgrade IMO. Perfectly.

Xisor

Xisor,

Regarding your recomendation of Cadre's... and the Tau Empire's reference to it. The Tau Empires Codex has a page referencing the hierarchy. We have it backwards in E:A! SO if you are going to look at their recomendation of Cadre, you have to also look at their definition of Cadre.

From memory - the Tau Empires book says the following, from smallest to largest, it goes:

1. Team = unit
2. Cadre = formation
3. Congingent = group of Cadres
4. Battle = group of Contingents
5. ... I've forgotten... it just gets larger though.

SO, A CADRE is a smaller organiztion than a CONTINGENT.

So when they say Vespids are commonly bolted onto Cadres, they are talking about commonly being part of other team groupings. Thus, they fit into 40K well. They are a seperate unit that goes to battle with other Teams (units). Thus, they are part of the Tau 40K force org chart.

NOTE: We've adopted the opposite philosophy in E:A. We call a Contingent something smaller than a Cadre. The truth is - we have it backwards per Tau Empires.

So Vespids could be a Congingents in E:A, using our Tau E:A languague, or they could be upgrades to contingents (and Cadres) to again - use our Tau E:A language.

Cheers,

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Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:45 pm

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Quote (clausewitz @ 09 April 2006 (18:09))

Keep in mind, its not the stealth field that allows stealths to Deep Strike - its the tau jump pack. (drones and crisis have the same thing but we don't give it to them in E:A for some reason).

Just a side not on this. ?In EA the scale is such that the Tau jump pack would not result in a "deep strike" type ability. ?IIRC, its the stealth field that allows them to "teleport". ?The idea being that they can "sneak" behind enemy lines "appearing" when they choose to strike.

Does that mean that the sniper drone team in E:A would have teleport?

Seems like a real abstraction.

The stealth field is supposed to be the thing that keeps them from being seen at distances further away than 36" in 40K - (or what would be 30cm in Epic if we were to adopt such a thing.)

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:55 pm

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I do think rail drones could be an interesting upgrade for firewarriors.

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Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:59 pm

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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 10 April 2006 (13:55))

I do think rail drones could be an interesting upgrade for firewarriors.

You're talking about the Sniper Drone Teams in 40K, right TRC?

Depending upon where we go with 'stealth field generators' would determine whether or not they make sense as an upgrade at all.

They could easily become their own formation.

Also depends upon what we want the Stealth Field Generator equipped Sniper Drone unit to actually do in E:A.

I think this is going to be a good one to discuss in a seperate thread as the Stealth Field Generator discussion impacts existing stealth... the rail rifle aspects affect the existing PF's, and the network marker light affects various things such as Skyray and tiger shark.

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Xisor

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:08 pm

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Tactica makes a point I only just saw a wee whiley before hand[but you'll be pleased to know I thought exactly of you lot as I read it!

].

Anyway.

Cadre = Formation
~3-6 Cadres = Contingent.

Now, for purposes of renaming:

All 'Cadres' become 'Core Cadres'
All 'Contingents' become 'Support Cadres'
Gun Drone 'Squadrons' become Gun Drone 'Wings'[A gun drone squadron is ~= a unit in Epic, the step up from Squadron is a Wing]
The 'Army' is renamed a Battle [Tau: Kavaal]

That's what I can decipher for now anyway. I may have missed things though.

Xisor

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Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:06 pm

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Quote (HecklerMD @ 28 Mar. 2006 (07:12))

My short-take summary of the changes in the new Codex and what we may need to do with them:

All the new XV8 / XV88 Battlesuit systems:
Almost entirely nothing to do with our list-most of the items are too small detail for Epic, thought the Cyclic Ion Blaster might make a case for the Commander upgrades to get +1 FF attack.

XV15 / XV22 / XV25 StealthSuits - 1 in 3 XV25s can take a Fusion Blaster, so perhaps 1 in 3 stands can have a 15cm MW5+ attack? ?Also, XV22 kinda justifies allowing a low-end Leader upgrade in StealthSuit units, IMO

New ML Rules: ?No change for us.

Sniper Drones: Hmm...
Upgrade to FWs, Replace 1 FW stand with 1 Sniper Drone Team:
Inf, Armor 6 / CC 6 / FF 6
3x AP6+ 30 CM, Sniper, Disrupt

Just throwing that out...

Skyray/Pirhana: ?We already got em. ?Though Pirhanas can now take Fusion Blasters now.... :devil:

Vespid: ?Ahh...

Alien Auxs dont intrest me in general, I'll let someone else take a crack at 'em.

I think there's some good stuff to consider here.

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Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:08 pm

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Quote (Xisor @ 10 April 2006 (15:08))

Tactica makes a point I only just saw a wee whiley before hand[but you'll be pleased to know I thought exactly of you lot as I read it! ?

].

Anyway.

Cadre = Formation
~3-6 Cadres = Contingent.

Xisor

Xisor,

I think this bit is going to be the cause for much headache for some people in the near future.

It will be interesting to see CS's take after he digests the dex.

Cheers,

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clausewitz

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:14 pm

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Quote (Tactica @ 10 April 2006 (19:45))

Quote (clausewitz @ 09 April 2006 (18:09))

Keep in mind, its not the stealth field that allows stealths to Deep Strike - its the tau jump pack. (drones and crisis have the same thing but we don't give it to them in E:A for some reason).

Sniper Drone Team teleporting.. I don't think so. I guess one could argue based on the premise of the stealths teleporting that sniper drones could. But I think that comes down to how they would be deployed for battle. Stealths sneaking behind enemy lines sems appropriate. But sniper drones seem to be deployed in support of the Tau army, rather than out on their own.

I envisage them being more like IG support weapon stands, attached to either FW cadres or pathfinder contingents. I know this isnt how they are deployed in 40K, but you don't have formations of 40-60 FWs either.

Yes, it is an abstraction. But then so are most of the EA rules if you look at them in that way. Markerlights for example is a good example of this (or Eldar hit and run).

As for the effect of the stealth field on sniper drone teams I would say that giving them RA, would account for that.

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Honda

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:00 pm

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Sniper Drone Team teleporting.. I don't think so. ?I guess one could argue based on the premise of the stealths teleporting that sniper drones could. ?But I think that comes down to how they would be deployed for battle. ?Stealths sneaking behind enemy lines sems appropriate. ?But sniper drones seem to be deployed in support of the Tau army, rather than out on their own.

I envisage them being more like IG support weapon stands, attached to either FW cadres or pathfinder contingents. ?I know this isnt how they are deployed in 40K, but you don't have formations of 40-60 FWs either.

I agree this is the path we should consider looking at. The Sniper drones strike me as having high potential as a garrison unit (i.e. something that sets up and waits for an opportunity), not a "special forces" type of unit like the real ?stealths are.

Also, this just occurred to me...they could be a two stand formation, transported by a DF. The idea of them just walking all over the battlefield seems a little silly. Anyway, that's just a shot in the dark.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:58 pm

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The idea of anything walking is a little strange and yet some army elements do it even today!

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clausewitz

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:11 pm

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The idea of anything walking is a little strange and yet some army elements do it even today!

Falklands TRC?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:24 pm

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I was thinking that, and for some reason couldn't shake the image of devilfish moving para's!

But otherwise I think all modern armies have elements that are moved into place and then left to lug themselves around until the area is safe enough for soft skins.

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clausewitz

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:52 pm

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I was thinking that, and for some reason couldn't shake the image of devilfish moving para's!

I reckon they'd prefer a few Orcas

(But the Orcas were probably on the Atlantic Conveyor)

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Tactica

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:50 pm

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Quote (Honda @ 11 April 2006 (07:00))

Also, this just occurred to me...they could be a two stand formation, transported by a DF. The idea of them just walking all over the battlefield seems a little silly. Anyway, that's just a shot in the dark.

@Cw,

I don't think the SGDT should have teleport either. Glad taht's not what you were suggesting.

I do think we need to explore the Stealth Field more seriously as no shooting at the formation unless within 30cm. Its intended to have a very specific effect on the battlefield. Its meant to make it impossible to engage the target unless you are close. It also allows small/short ranged troops to have an impact on the target.

I'll go into this more on the SGDT specific thread.

@Honda,

I know your a mech-head and all...

However, I'd need a real justifiable reason to embrace divergence from core design on this one. (afterall, we diverge so much with E:A tau... I'd like to avoid doing so where not necessary!)

If they want them to fly in an orca for major land haul or Manta for orbital drop - I'll buy that. But the DF was not given to them as an option in core design of their field level role in 40K.

I see no reason why we should diverge from that - unless warranted/justified on the E:A battlefield. Afterall, they'll still have the 15cm typical infantry move (due to the FW drone controller with tripod being lugged around).

PS: @Honda - joking side comment to Honda
(you know you want to be a hybridist! Embrace the dark side)

More about the SGDT on the specific SGDT thread.

Cheers,

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Honda

Post subject: consequences of the new 40k codex

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:37 pm

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PS: @Honda - joking side comment to Honda
(you know you want to be a hybridist! Embrace the dark side)

Dude, I am Greek and Seminole Indian. You don't get much more "hybrid" than that. ?

The point I was offering, is that even in 40K, as soon as you expand the playing area to something outside of 4' x 6', then the mechanics fall apart and suddenly, the idea of armies "walking" to battle becomes rather pointless as the longer ranged, mechanized units will just sit back and chew them up.

In EA, the "boundaries" have already been lifted by the nature of the game, hence old 40K paradigms no longer apply. Again, it's just a thought and if we decide not to incorporate them into the list, then I shall hardly notice.

If you think about it, if our biggest contention points now are whether or not we included Vespids and Sniper Drones, then we're doing pretty good.

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Honda

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