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Reviewing Spirit Stones

 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:46 am 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 03 April 2006 (19:12))
Ginger, you are right. ?Unless we can come to some consensus this will go nowhere. ?

But the fact that we can't come to a consensus tells me a couple of things:

1. The problem may not be as bad as some would think.
2. The solution may not be in the Spirit Stones at all.

Consensus is a pipedream - that's why we have AC's  :;):

The very fact that there has been massive discussion on SS since day one should tell you that something is very wrong with them - not that there is no problem!

Lack of consensus occurs simply because to a problem like this there are many different workable solutions, each with its own supporters.

Just like in the massive 'pop-up' rule debate, the AC just has to pick one, test it, and decide that it is good enough.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:51 am 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 03 April 2006 (19:12))
Markconz,
The reason why I don't like restricting them to the tanks alone is because it makes the rule seem seem fiddly. ?(snip)
Give Spirit Stones only to the vehicles without anything to the infantry? ?Tough call. ?Will this unbalance the list in the opposite direction? ?Don't know.

Snipped yhour comments about leader and exarchs as neither of us support that idea anyway. I'm confused about why just giving the rule to tanks would be 'fiddly' when plenty of other rules in the game are restricted to only certain units? Why on earth would it be fiddly in this case but not in those??

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:25 am 
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Quote (Ginger @ 03 April 2006 (22:13))
Guys
check out the Ulthwe vs Guard 2700 Bat rep, in which the Ulthwe player was using Spirit stones, and contends that they were the only thing keeping him in the game past turn 1.

The more brittle Eldar Falcons, Fire Prisms and Night Spinners (5 formations out of 10) seem to have spent most of the game broken, but on the table at least in part - for 2 turns, but were then largely wiped out in turns 3 & 4

Cheers

Ginger

Link doesn't work for me, but if it is the one I'm thinking of then it is a classic cookie cutter eldar killing list, vs a eldar army without the right tools for the job at hand.

Note also that half the eldar formations consist of small numbers of tanks... ?  :(8:





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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:40 am 
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Well it's late in my country and I can't sleep. How about a crappy fairy tale?

The farseer was meditating on his throne, hearing the echos of the wraithbone, thinking of the recent, disturbing events.
A young seer, came to him, with the serious face caracterizing the bringers of bad news :
"-? wise and insightful farseer, I have bad news to report
-Well I know that. I'm a farseer, remember. I dont have much time for you. Ask the dead seers who are in the spirit stones of the warlock titans, nobody wants them in battle, so they'll have time for you.
-Sorry ? almighty one, but my concern is about spirit stones. Autarchs dont want them anymore. They say that victory is too easy and honourless.  
-Yes I know that. We'll do without the stones and see.
-But, the other seers disagree. They say we'll be weaker than space marines.
-These armoured wimps? Don't be silly. Well, let's limit the stones on the Gifts of Vaul
-But the ranger confederation says that every advantage should be killable. And you know how they are when they speak of sniping.
-This is too much for an old eldar like me. I'm tired. Let's do what we always do in this case. Let's call the avatar, at least it costs nothing."

The faseer then slowly got up and pronounced the following words :


"I call thee, ? Kaela Mensha, accept these fourteen pages of spam, trolls and good ideas as sacrifice. Bring us your avatar! Appear now and guide us! Come Army Champion, come!"






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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:46 am 
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Quote (thurse @ 04 April 2006 (00:40))
How about a crappy fairy tale?

:D  

I liked it a lot thurse!

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:48 am 
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From now on no matter what SS rule I'm using in a game, I'm going to post it as a separate thread (like Chroma always does) so MC23 doesn't have to scroll through pages of noise. I recommend others do the same.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:10 am 
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Mark, I was saying that giving the SS rule to the tanks only + giving Exarchs leader (proposed earlier in thread) seems fiddly.  You 'snipped' my intented meaning. :p

SS to tanks seem it could work.  I am just saying I don't know.  Nobody does with any degree of certainty.

We could try it, I suppose.  Does anyone out there have the web knowledge and wherewithall to make another BattleStats page for experimental rules?

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:50 am 
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The other solution would be to archieve the results annually and reset the stats for a historical perspective. That would provide trend data rather that a series of data points that eventually flatten out and communicate very little change.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:59 am 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 04 April 2006 (10:10))
Mark, I was saying that giving the SS rule to the tanks only + giving Exarchs leader (proposed earlier in thread) seems fiddly. ?You 'snipped' my intented meaning. :p

SS to tanks seem it could work. ?I am just saying I don't know. ?Nobody does with any degree of certainty.

Ok apologies for my misunderstanding  :blush:

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:24 pm 
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Thanks Markconz, fixed the link to the Bat rep.

I agree that the choice of armies in this engagement meant that Eldar player was always going to have difficulties, but in some ways this actually helps the intended analysis. IMO, the analysis of the resiliance and availability of the Eldar formations can (and probably should) be done without consideration of the opposing army, save perhaps for an understanding of the order in which he targeted the Eldar formations.

I would also agree with the view expressed by others that the problem may actually be resolved by some means other than changing / replacing the SS rule - but still contend that we must first define the problem(s) in the simplest of terms possible.

I wholeheartedly echo that we should hold Bat Reps elsewhere, but please put a link in here, and preferably a summary of the points that are relevant to this discussion, namely the impact of the presence (or absence) of SS, the fate of the smaller formations, and whether '4th turn wilt' occurred.

Cheers

Ginger

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:21 pm 
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Quote (Markconz @ 04 April 2006 (00:51))
Quote (Moscovian @ 03 April 2006 (19:12))
Markconz,
The reason why I don't like restricting them to the tanks alone is because it makes the rule seem seem fiddly. ?(snip)
Give Spirit Stones only to the vehicles without anything to the infantry? ?Tough call. ?Will this unbalance the list in the opposite direction? ?Don't know.

Snipped yhour comments about leader and exarchs as neither of us support that idea anyway. I'm confused about why just giving the rule to tanks would be 'fiddly' when plenty of other rules in the game are restricted to only certain units? Why on earth would it be fiddly in this case but not in those??

If we are going to make rules adjustments to published hard copy rulebooks/army lists then we need to Keep It Simple.

Most people could cope if there was an FAQ limiting the existing Spirit Stones rule to just certain units. Doing anything too fancy in terms of changes to the Spirit Stones rules will make it harder for players (& opponents) of Biel Tan to follow.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:14 am 
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Quote (thurse @ 04 April 2006 (01:40))
"-? wise and insightful farseer, I have bad news to report
-Well I know that. I'm a farseer, remember. I dont have much time for you. Ask the dead seers who are in the spirit stones of the warlock titans, nobody wants them in battle, so they'll have time for you.

Hey, you insensitive clod[1], *I* use Warlock titans in my battles!!! ?I love using units with Inspiring, Commander, Farsight and +2 FF TKd3 attacks.

[1] an obligitory slashdot.org quote ?:D

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Chroma has logged another very clear and concise bat rep here Tau Battle Weekend - Game 4 - 2000 points and there are comments on it in the Eldar forum here

They were using the 1 SS per 1000 points version (which was only applied to an Aspect host on two turns), but there seems to have been little difference from the normal SS rule.

The Falcon troupe was the only formation completely destroyed, being obliterated in the first two turns, and the Fire Prisms were severely mauled in the first turn, rallied in turn #2 and one was available in turn #3

The battle only lasted 3 turns, but I suggest that "4th turn wilt" was starting to be felt with the Falcons gone, the Prisms much reduced and the Rangers and one of the Eldar Aspect formations reduced below 50% leaving three viable combat formations.

Cheers

Ginger

(PS re-linked again as the target id changed for some reason)





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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:56 pm 
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I would definitely recommend folks give the thread ginger references and Chroma posted.

The discussion, if applied, would effect the SS rule's impact to the Eldar.

i.e. its back to points tweaks for the Eldar BT list to effectively 'charge' for the SS rule across the board as needed. Such tweaks would include some downward movement as needed and upward movement elsewhere.

The discussion goes back to days of old when SS would stay, but the points in the list would change.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:10 am 
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i.e. its back to points tweaks for the Eldar BT list to effectively 'charge' for the SS rule across the board as needed. Such tweaks would include some downward movement as needed and upward movement elsewhere.

The discussion goes back to days of old when SS would stay, but the points in the list would change.


Sorry but I do not see this at all, in fact we stopped using the SS rule with the Eldar two weeks ago and I have yet to see anykind of major problem. And yes we will be doing a batrep this weekend that has an Eldar army w/o SS.

Sorry but I cannot agree that we are down to just point tweeks.

Jaldon :p

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