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The Demiurg
epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:55 am 
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The Demiurg Consortium Download.

This is the 'finalized' list,  and the background that was serialized on the SG forum.

I look forward to your review and comment as well as any dialogue regarding the work in general.

go to it folks!

sorry for any oops in the download process!

epilgrim




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Yuber Okami
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:46 pm 
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Uhmmm... most of the background is just as i imagined. Now, if i can convince my local squat general to give a try to this list... Anyway, what do the other people of the forum think about this document?

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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:55 am 
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Y. O.,

I hope I am correct in assuming that you liked it. Please let me know if I am off-base, and if so what did you not like?

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Gotchaye
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:32 pm 
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Wow, I'm really impressed by the fluff, though I've got a few questions.  I assume that it's really not official fluff that the Demiurg are the Squats - why did you choose this route?

As elite units, the Hearthguard are interesting, but the Hearthguard Cavalry strike me as a bit out of place.  They're certainly not in keeping with the slow-but-solid theme of the rest of the list, and are simply superior to Eldar Shining Spears - something that strikes me as a bit weird.  I can accept the basic bikers as a necessary fast unit - as out of place units, they're not as good as what other races can bring to fill the same role, but the Hearthguard are just amazing.  Likewise, the Gyrocopter bothers me.  I mean, that's something almost as good as the Tau Hammerhead.

Are you sure you want to call the Autonoms an android?  I had always thought of those (androids) as human-like robots.  Surely you either mean cyborg (robot with a living brain) or simple robot.

I admit to being slightly concerned about the possibilities of taking Thunderfire for antiair and Mega-Cannons for killing everything else, though that's more an issue for the actual army list, which I don't feel up to examining.

On Particle Shielding - isn't this as good as what Necrons get from Living Metal?  However advanced the Demiurg are compared to the Imperium, they surely can't approach the Necrons or Eldar, right?
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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:08 pm 
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Hena,

thank you for the edit comments, every pair of eyes helps!

BTW did you like it over all?

With regards to your comments:

Goliath Mega-Cannon: I understand the issues with the wording. I am not sure " Minimium range 30' " works because the Goliath is designed to only fire as a Sustained Fire action (bombardment). My concern is that players might accident treat this like the existing artillery and fire them using Advance or Hold actions, which is exactly what I don't want to have happen.

Your suggestion regarding 'must use indirect fire' is better. Perhaps I need to be crystal clear and use the following (?):

'Limited Fire Arc: A Goliath Battery formation may only select  a Marshal or Sustained Fire Action. On a Sustained Fire Action they can only fire indirectly as detailed under the rules for Barrages (1.9.8). If given a Hold Action they may do nothing that turn.'

Any thoughts?

The Thunder Cannon: My main concerns with this list was play balance and creating a 'creditable' fiction. If I stacked too many MW on the MCF chassis, beefed up the DC, or gave them void shields they would have been (IMO) very off balance in comparison with other races. the Thunder Cannon, to me, is a short-range 'grapeshot' type weapon, whereas the Doomsday Cannon is the crown jewel of ranged weapons. I did not want to give the Colossus the ability to wipe out anybody w/in 30' with a 6 BP MW...that's just gross (IMO).

Great to hear from you, excellent discussion material.

As for the PDF, I want to incorporate all of the comments I am collecting and a broader playtest reaction. Then I will publish V2 and that might be ready for a PDF. Thank you for the offer to host this.

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Xisor
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:10 pm 
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As much as I like it, there's only one thing about it I totally and utterly dislike, and Epilgrim already knows it[and we've also came to a mutual 'agree to disagree' end]. What is it?

the word Demiurg.

:p

Use squats damnit!

Squats, by all admissions are not the Demiurg, and the same works in reverse. It's a very lovely list and fluff, but it pierces my soul to see Demiurg used when it should be Squat.[At very least, I can't plead for you to use a 'third' name could I?]

If it did go through with GW, I'd be sorely disappointed[and there's a fair few dozens of people out there I know of too, compared to a handful who'd say 'yay the squats under a new name'], but I can't see that ever happening and IIRC, neither does epilgrim.[it doesn't stop it chaffing]

Demiurg seem to be in the interrim between 'top level human engineering' and Eldar. So this could put them squarely above the DAoT humans. I'm pretty sure the squats and 'this' version of Demiurg don't illustrate 'supeceding' the DAoT humans, yet I feel it'd be better served if they did.

In all honesty, the list still feels too human/dwarfy/squatted to 'feel' Demiurg, but that could easily be bias from having spent the last two years illustrating the differences between them and now being confronted with a list that simply disregards it[not in a malicious or ignorant way, Epilgrim simply chose this route and stuck with it, regardless of what I had to say!].

Anyhow, as a total piece of thread hijacking:

http://www.savefile.com/files3.php?fid=7965110

My version of the Demiurg.[/hijacking]

Don't mistake me though, I like the list, I just don't like that it's Demiurg.

Xisor[bitter, it'd seem]

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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:39 pm 
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Gotchaye,

Thanks for looking!

as far as my fictional account of the Demiurg, I have passed it to Andy and Jervis. Andy remarked that it looked good,...but he and I were quite clear that GW have not defined what they have planned for the Demiurg.

In the interim, I wrote my fiction, a lot of people seem to like it, and I am not attempting to sell it, so it exists as a way to get these minis back in play, in a manner that I believe looks and feels right for the material leaked through BGF (love those Commerce Ships!).

As far as use of the word android, I was using the loose definition of a robot that resemble a human (head, 2 arms, 2 legs, etc.). Chalk it up to my perogative.

The Thunderfire and the Goliath are meant to be impressive, but very limited, their deployment is everything and relying on them will cost a Demiurg player the game in any objective type scenario.

The Iron Eagles are very useful, but no match for anyone really intent on killing them...one casualty and they are broken.

The Hearthguard Cavalry are fair for thier price, and are in keeping with the fast attack units in the army. I have seen them do very well, and die in the trying like every other elite unit. Try playing them a bit and then react to them.

As far as the particle shielding, I thought what I worked out was unique...it negates nothing (especially regular AT shooting), but it improves survival against MW and TK. Again, play it and then tell me what you think.

As per my fiction, the Demiurg are way past the Imperium technically, militarily they have a split-personality doctrine, fast but lightly armoured, or mind numbingly slow but tough as nails. Mix that in with no aircraft and you have a very different army to play...have fun with it!




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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:21 pm 
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Xisor,

A few questions:

1. Do you personally play Epic?
2. Do you own any of the models affected by this list?
3. What makes your opinion superior to anyone elses?
4. When I have made no attempt to criticize your fictional work, why do you insist on doing so to me - are you really that insecure?
5. Why would I not take advantage of a new piece of GW fiction, the Demiurg, to put forth a new story, just as you have done?
6. Why would I persist in using the moniker 'squats' when Jervis has indicated how unhappy the studio was with the name and the original background?
7. what makes you think I need the approval or endorsement of GW? - it would be nice - but it is highly unlikely or very far off given thier current agenda.

overall you seem to be taking a sematics issue very personally...sad




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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:02 pm 
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hena,

Thanks again. Not sure anything using these minis will ever get GW's blessing... :/

I've tried to move them passed what previously was written by GW and steer away from the fictional elements that brought the studio to the decision to kill them off, but as noted I worked that plot twist is for sake of continuity.

could you clarify your last comment?

'would hope that you change to make it suitable for inclusion to EA in gw as well'

not sure I understand, but I would like to. :)

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epilgrim
 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:26 pm 
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I have spoken to Andy Hall and he thought on a glance that it was a good effort, but this range of minatures, regardless of what you call them will still be behind thier other priorities namely; Chaos, Tyranids, Tau and Necrons.

Those races aside the splinter lists for Marines, Guard, Orks, Eldar and Chaos may also take priority.

However, If people really like it and it plays well don't count it out. Myself I always liked the minis and now that I wrote it, ?:D I even like the fiction.

I will continue to put this before GW-SG , but I am very realistic about it's possible inclusion ????

Who knows, for now they are playable and in the end that will be good enough for me.




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