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Aircraft Sniping in E:A
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:27 am 
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Mine is a view that prevents murder (what, you put your ******* Marauder ******* bomber on my forgeworld infantry? *cue frenzied knife attack*) unless you just say its there (then why have a model?).

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Tactica
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:46 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 06 Mar. 2006 (17:27))
Mine is a view that prevents murder (what, you put your ******* Marauder ******* bomber on my forgeworld infantry? *cue frenzied knife attack*) unless you just say its there (then why have a model?).

ROFLMAO - OK, this was a laughable response TRC. I didn't know you could genuinely joke. :p

Seriously now...

1) I think the fact that 'people' attempt to 'snipe' is a problem in itself. If the rules didn't allow it, people wouldn't try it.

2) I think the fact that one must 'bunch up models' in order to attempt to get around the 'abuse' interpretation of 'sniping' with aircraft is a problem

3) I think the fact that the rules allow aircraft to stop 'anywhere' - even over enemy models - is a problem if the game is going to require models be set on the field.

4) I think all of this can go away if the rules were clearer about where an aircraft model could be set on the field of play and thus - disallowing aircraft to be placed on top of enemy Forgeworld models ...

...which I agree with Greg by the way - I've seen countless people interpret the rules in such a way as to believe that aircraft may stop anywhere (even on top of the enemy foramtions).

Although I've yet to witness a berserker frenzy triggered, I've definitely seen more than one aged gaming professional become disgruntal if not agitated as a result of 'hobby shop kid' dropping his plane bitz on top of 'aged professional's' fantastically painted 'ebay' formation. :/

PS - Greg - looking forward to the poll results.

Cheers,

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:42 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 07 Mar. 2006 (00:46))

I didn't know you could genuinely joke. :p


What you thought that CSM assessment was serious? :)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:51 am 
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I think I would add that this is really only coming about as a function of the "creep" in air power, and the consequent focus on the air game.

It seems that we have a slight divergence of opinions here, mainly caused by the way the game mechanics work. Self evidently, A/c fly over formations, so ignore ground ZOC. However, in order to establish the range and direction to target, the A/c motion is "frozen" at the point where it opens fire. The game mechanics then take over to establish the effects etc.

For what it's worth, I agree that Hena's suggestion on re-wording the way A/c move and where they can be positioned would take care of "sniping" (and beserker tendencies). Possibly I would add two other aspects
- That A/c can (very gently ?:) ) 'barge' out of the way any "pickets" from other formations.
- That A/c are required to end up facing their target (and hence must fly closer to it before they can turn).

The latter suggestion is to counter the Flak avoidence techniques involved in 'long range' targeting of specific units in the formation - which I actually see as the more problematic issue here.

@Honda
Could you expand further on how your group moves and positions their A/c in the more gentlemanly spirit of the game.

Cheers

Ginger

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Tactica
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:04 am 
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I took a look over on the SG forum - looks like the topic and GLane's post is generating some attention.

Cheers,

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Honda
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:41 pm 
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Mine is a view that prevents murder (what, you put your ******* Marauder ******* bomber on my forgeworld infantry? *cue frenzied knife attack*) unless you just say its there (then why have a model?).


I very nearly blew my tea through my nose on that one.  :laugh:

As an aside to help new people understand that although they are just inanimate object, that I do care for them, I place a little placard near the table that states, "Break a figure, break a finger".

Never had any questions and/or trouble.

@Ginger

I think the best way to state this is that (now remember, our group is new to Epic) we believe that the aircraft attack a formation, not a unit. So, whether it be sloppily or precise, I think we focus more on avoiding flak where possible to get to the target formation.

After that, we're just happy to get hits.   :/

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:34 pm 
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I could favor a "direction of fire is always considered to be from the direction of the approach move" targetting exception.

That way if someone is sloppy or taking an intentional risk and puts stuff on the edge of a formation they can be punished, but if they bury it in the middle, it's protected.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 07 Mar. 2006 (14:34))
I could favor a "direction of fire is always considered to be from the direction of the approach move" targetting exception.

That way if someone is sloppy or taking an intentional risk and puts stuff on the edge of a formation they can be punished, but if they bury it in the middle, it's protected.

This looks the way to go and would stop the need to have aircraft stopping in the middle of a formation(and risk of TRC getting himself into trouble ??? )
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:52 pm 
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To give credit where it is due, I think it was originally Tneva's suggestion.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:10 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 07 Mar. 2006 (08:34))
I could favor a "direction of fire is always considered to be from the direction of the approach move" targetting exception.

That way if someone is sloppy or taking an intentional risk and puts stuff on the edge of a formation they can be punished, but if they bury it in the middle, it's protected.

I'd be happy with that. Might be a cleaner approach in the end.

And we've all seen the strafing runs in moves... the plane starts firing, droping ordinance, etc in front of the formation and it then plows on through into the target formation.

Would work just fine for me actually.

Now - to model/frame that up in writing that we could all use as a rule...

Cheers,

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:31 pm 
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I dunno. Setting one side of a formation as the front and one as the back doesn't really change how fire arcs affect things.

If you really want to have hits distributed starting from the approach side, why not just limit the a/c to stopping in bases-to-base contact with the first unit in the traget formation which the line of approach crosses.

Of course there are issues with forcing that, as well, such as a theoretical a/c with rear arc weapons. Also, a/c with both AP and AT weapons might not be able get both types of targets into range if they weren't allowed to stop in the middle of a formation.

I think there will be more problems having to do with figuring out ranges and fire arcs if we go to a system that has the plane in one place, but has the fire coming from another.

The easiest "solution" (in quotes, because I really don't think this issue is a problem) might be to allow the defender to pick the casualties in the case of a ground attack, as long as they are eligible targets based on ranges, fire arcs, and to-hit modifiers.
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:33 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 07 Mar. 2006 (14:34))
I could favor a "direction of fire is always considered to be from the direction of the approach move" targetting exception.

That way if someone is sloppy or taking an intentional risk and puts stuff on the edge of a formation they can be punished, but if they bury it in the middle, it's protected.

Just to add my vote for this alteration here. Simple, and logical, and solves the problem.

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