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Marines vs. Titans
Xisor
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:08 pm 
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From a 'fluff' perspective; if I were a Space Marine Commander thinking how to deal with a titan, I'd probably(assuming I only have chapter-issue things, like *not* titans) I'd simply 'insert' a couple of squads with Melta Guns and Multi Meltas nearby, then move on from there with them.

In Epic:Armageddon this isn't quite viable since none of the infantry units have Multimeltas. Hence my proposal for MM Tacticals and Devastators. It's abundantly clear that they serve a blindingly obvious purpose in the list. One the background accounts for(by having MMs at all!) so clearly it follows they should be about at some point.

Now, I know Epic isn't supposed to allow such tailoring os squads with 'one size fits all', but with Marines, I really don't see the problem. It's what they do.

MM(or at least a 15cm Mega Weapon with bonus +1 FF value) should be an option in place of the Missile Launcher of basic SM stands.

Simple. That's how it's done  :;):

In the fluff. I don't know quite if it works in Epic, but I don't see why not.

Xisor

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primarch
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:12 pm 
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Hi!

In all versions of epic SM have had problems with titans. In the end the recommendations of fight it with another titan are the only viable alternative since SM are surgical strike teams not attritional troops that can effectively tangle with a titan.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:40 pm 
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But surely you can 'surgically strike' against a Titan?

In the fluff, it seems reasonable that space marines should be able to do this. Multiple melta weapons should soon sort it. A handful of devastators dropped from a Thunderhawk should easily sort them here. Fluffwise that is.

I mean, the Salamanders were famed for their surgical strikes against Roks on Armageddon. How the hell would one account for this given the current Epic List?

I'd say it's more plausible that if certain Marine squads were capable of making Mega Weapon attacks then they'd be quite capable of dealing with Titans and War Machines in a far more 'Marine' Style than being forced to requisition a God-Machine simply to 'cover their backs' as they try to conduct surgery underneath the fire.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:46 pm 
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I mean, the Salamanders were famed for their surgical strikes against Roks on Armageddon. How the hell would one account for this given the current Epic List?


They did it by getting inside the Roks, setting charges, and blowing them up. And in Epic-A it would be treated like a fortified position, not a single WE.

SM can deal with WE, it just takes a good amount of work to pull off. Personnally I like having to work around problems and find solutions rather then have someone write a rule so I don't have to. To me that sounds more like SM.

My two cents..........

Jaldon :p

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Xisor
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:12 pm 
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That's a valid point from a Games Design view(not the Salamanders part, that was a mistake for me :blush: ), but considering that the SM 'Commander' shouldn't have to. They have the weapons and opportunity to do so. I don't see why they should need to get around a problem that shouldn't be.

If it was, say, appealing to allow them to quadruple their formation size to make up numbers then I'd really agree with your PoV(forgiving my obvious exageration there), but really, the close range option for Space Marines simply should be.

I don't see why not for the Mega Weapon MM option. Perhaps a distinct offshoot list, but thats beside my point. It's agreed the list 'can' deal with it, but not in the way that really a marine should.

Well, no as I see it anyway.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:47 pm 
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The SM list has a formation that is filled with nothing but multi-meltas - Speeders.  I have yet to figure out why people don't like them, but for me they consistently hammer RA targets, including titans.  I've managed as many as 40 MW attacks in 2 turns from 2 formations of Speeders when facing a Nid biotitan.  While that is extreme, I'd say I usually average well over 1 attack per unit per turn over the course of a game.  Fire/support assault is the name of the game.

They are cheap, so nothing should stop you from taking them in mass quantities.  It's rare that I take a marine force without at least 1 formation and I usually have 2 at 2700-3000 points.

If a marine force is short on MW attacks, it's no different than an IG force being short on TK attacks because they didn't take Shadowswords.

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ortron
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:57 pm 
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From my view it appears there are 2 different lines of thought here.

One group saying that a SM force picked based on a "fluff wise" strike force would suffer against a titan.

While I think the other group is looking at the problems faced by a player of a SM force under GT conditions.

Therefore should the question be:

How can a SM force without allies beat a Titan?

But this is not a limitaion of GT style play so as far as the current list is concerned are people happy that SM can handle titans?

Hope this helps, since for me it looked like 2 different arguments?
thanks
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:54 am 
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IMO ... yes ... SM without a Titan can take on a Titan ... as I said, Orbital Support, CAS and FA, plus a lot of Direct Fire Assets ... but it could be very close ...

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:41 am 
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Wasn't one chapter toasted as the inquisition got rid of them by telling them to assualt a gargant area (leading to the death of the chapter as all the medics and most of the men died).

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:36 am 
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Orbital support and airstrikes would seem the most logical solution. IN the early titan fluff the carapace would sometimes be painted in camo pattern. IIRC this was to offer some means of camouflage against orbital attacks and airstrikes which would suggest that this was somehow regarded as a considerable threat.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Marines getting a pinpoint orbital attack in E:A. I think it makes a lot of sense fluff wise. After all the Bombardment cannons on the SM vessels are designed to take out heavily armoured targets in suport of the Marine landings. (though mainly stationary targets like bunkers)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:02 pm 
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Camo was originally designed against air observation(WWI), and morphed from that.  Anything as big as a building would be an easy target for Orbital Weapons Platforms(OWPs) that includes Spacecraft. And ofcourse CAS, airstrikes seem to work in many cases. Plus FA !  That's the way we do it ... but when we play we decide if Titans are or not going to be deployed (25/33/50% rules in affect) ... The "dicy" part comes when you lose your Titan and his is still alive an only lightly damaged !!! :oops:  Time to call in OWPs, CAS, FA and anything else you can muster !  Fire at will !!     :D

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:13 pm 
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It makes sense, sort of, but they'd need a special rule for it.  

As an example, when they were designing the SR71 Blackbird, it was originally intended to be a post-nuclear strike 'take out what we missed before it launches' aircraft.  Then some genius realized that you could get missiles up to roughly Mach 7, when they were starting over Mach 3.  They ran some numbers, and realized that they didn't even need a nuclear warhead.  500kg @ 7000kph yields roughly 75kilotons, and orbital strikes come in at over Mach 15.  Do you guys remember one of the old X-Files episodes, with an ortillery/SDI satellite firing on a ground target?  IIRC, that was a slug the size of a hockey puck, and it devastated an area the size of a football field.  Scale that up to a bombardment cannon-sized shell (even if it is a subcaliber dart), and you're looking at massive desrtuction in a wide area.

I'd suggest a small blast template of roughly 3BP MW, TK(d3).  Each successful hit causes a loss of d3 DC.  Makes it a pretty dedicated WE-killer, but still fairly effective against troops/vehicles, and something resembling realistic for hard ordnance coming in from orbit, compared to a lance strike.  It'd be an either/or choice, though.  2BP Orbital plus the 3BP small template, or the full 5(?)BP orbital.

Actually, that wouldn't really need a special rule, just a tweak to how the Bombardment Cannons work.  Hmmmmmmmm...

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ortron
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:32 pm 
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Wasn't one chapter toasted as the inquisition got rid of them by telling them to assualt a gargant area (leading to the death of the chapter as all the medics and most of the men died).


yes i think that was the celestial lions? check www.armageddon3.com in the forces section, it has plenty of fluff.

As far as firing things from space at high speed.. it would be interesting to know if the projectile would actually be able to go that fast and survive at significant size to damage the target?

I have no idea really, but i imagine things like terminal velocity and wind resistance/friction with the atmosphere at VERY high speeds would be limiting factors.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:31 am 
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The old SM1 Off Board Support Rules is what we use for OWPs ... the science behind it is no real problem and with advanced tech ... hitting a Titan sized Target (or smaller) would be quite do-able ...  :;):

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zak
 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:10 pm 
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It seems to me that either the Marines would leave OPFOR Titans to the IG ,or blast them with Ortillery. ( Tracking a Titan with its shield up should be easy.)

And if the shields are down, what about teleporting inside the Titan to close assault the crew. :devil:

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