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Repugnant class
Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Here's a heavy cruiser for Chaos:

http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... hic2np.jpg
http://img499.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ic23fr.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums....t01.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums....t02.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums....t03.jpg
(NB: the painting isn't finished)


Points: 250
Hits: 8
Speed: 25cm
Shields: 2
Turrets: 3
Armour: 6+f/5+
Turn: 45

Launch bays: 4 (p+s)
P+S Lances: Str 3 / 60cm
Prow Torpedoes: Str 6

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Cuban Commissar
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Nice ship.  I like the extended launch bays
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Good you posted pictures of the vessel, wich looks great by the way, otherwise your stats would get flamed.

Why?

1) Chaos cruisers never have torps (call it the 'original game balance view from Andy and consorts).
2) Chaos cruisers never have an armoured prow (see point 1).

Fluffwise the vessel is like the grandcruisers from Armade, a bit of old IN design (Chaos design = old IN design) and some new IN design. So we're talking about an Imperial vessel turned Chaos after Horus Heresy!

Now to the stats:

First, your ship is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger as the more expensive Styx. Yet, the Styx is overcosted and 250 pts for the Styx would be real, so I judge from there.

- Launchbays The Styx has a total of 6, you 8.

- You have 6 lances (3L + 3R), the Styx has 2 + 6 batteries, both LFR.

- You have 6 torps, the Styx doesn't.

- You have an armoured prow.

So the Repugnant has an equivalent of Weapon batteries:
18 (6x3=lances) + 24 (8x3=AC) + 9 (6x1.5 torps) = 51 WBe
+ armoured prow

The Styx has:
6 (2x3=lances) + 6 (batteries) + 18 (6x3=AC) = 30 WBe

So the Repugnant is way stronger as a Styx (even at 250pts). Does the Repugnant have a-boats standard?

Solutions, to keep in theme with IN/Chaos hybrid:
- Lances 2 to each side ranged 45cm
- Launch Bays drop to 2 each side, 4 each side is not done, that's battleship territory.
- Torps, keep them.

This will give a total of 33 WBe, still more as the Styx, but the Styx has a-boats (wich you shouldn't give the Repugnant) and longer range on lances & batteries. The armoured prow will even out I guess since in a Chaos fleet its hard to use.

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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:09 pm 
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I think you've misunderstood the stats. The launchbays are 4 total, not 4 each side. It's 2 each side, and yes, it can launch a-boats, as Chaos can.

As far as fluff goes, I have no knowledge of 40k history, so I'm afraid it means very little to me - I designed the ship on what I wanted in my fleet, which is an upgraded Devastation. I never use the Styx, so I had no reason to base the ship off that. Besides, the Styx has LFR firing capability AS WELL AS the launch bays.

Torpedoes - I love them, but there's only 2 of us in our gaming group, and my friend plays IN, so I play Chaos. In my eyes, Chaos needs more torpedoes (not loads and loads, just a few more torp carriers). It's an expensive (I think) ship with not a lot of real firepower if it messes up a Reload Ordnance.

Armoured prow - simple, this one. It's a captured Gothic. If I'd captured a ship with a nice heavy prow, I wouldn't rip it off ;)


In closing, I'm fairly happy with this ship as it is.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:38 pm 
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So fine, it's a captured Gothic. So how did it's speed get bumped up to 25 cm? How did it manage to launch Dreadclaws? Just because it has launch bays doesn't mean it can launch them immediately or else, the IN would be doing them as well and remember, this is a Gothic, which didn't have launch facilities in the first place. How did it get 3+ turrets seeing as a Gothic only has 2? And as has been pointed out, how did it get Str 3@60cm port and starboard lances?

Remember that a ship is a sum of all its components. If you can't explain these major changes, then I don't think it will fly.

Advice: read up on 40k and BFG fluff and stats. It really helps because you should care about the history and existing stats as this defines the game. I could just about design any ship I wanted in my game and made it economical as well, even an ubership, but that would be boring. You should give life to your designs by introducing fluff and you'll see it makes the vessel special.

Another thing, fleets are supposed to have holes in them. They were purposely built in. Chaos does have torps but only on Grand Cruisers and Battleships because Chaos has the cheapest, most effective and best carrier in the game. If your friend decided to take a Dev or 2 in his fleet or design a really cheap carrier but as effective as a Dev, would you let him?

There is an effect here as most games are within 1000 to 2000 point matches. This ship really gives Chaos more than a one up advantage to you in any cruiser clash even at its present cost.
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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:15 pm 
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To be honest, if other Chaos carriers launch dreadclaws, and the Gothic gets refitted to have Chaos launch bays instead of IN ones (as is visible in the picture), I don't see why it can't launch dreadclaws, but that's just me.

The third lance comes from the extra chaos lance deck built underneath the standard IN lance bays (see pics). As for the 60cm range, my love for long range lances. But no, I can see where you're coming from with the range, though I'd be loathe to keep the range at 30cm which leaves 45cm, and from a fluff perspective I have no idea how that flies. In my mind, 45cm shouldn't seem too bad, seeing as the chaos lance has been added - the builders could've upgraded the IN ones slightly?

The armoured prow I've had a think about, and it can be lost I feel.

I've put the following through the Fleetmaster proggie and it came up thus:

Points: 215
Hits: 8
Speed: 25cm
Shields: 2
Turrets: 3
Armour: 5+
Turn: 45

Launch bays: 2/2 (p+s)
P+S Lances: Str 3 / 45cm
Prow Torpedoes: Str 6


is this more viable?

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Xisor
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:57 pm 
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More viable, yes.

Still a few quibbles, unfortunately yes too.

My main 'fluff' beef with it is this(and I'm sure you'll come to agree in time  :devil: ):

Strong Lances + Speed = Not much else. See the Desolater as a bit of an example.

The third turret isn't a major problem, and given that it's a heavy cruiser, 45cm Lances don't seem a problem, even at S3(again, there's no dorsal armament, so that's okay).

Thus the initial suggestion would be to drop the speed to 20cm. The next would be a tentative proposal for the speed to go to 220pts, perhaps even 225pts.

Otherwise, it sits reasonably well. A suggestion on modelling/painting to fit the 'class' ideally, paint it's prow like you would a Repulsive Class' rather than how you'd do an Imperial 'Armoured' Prow. That way it'd look a *bit* more in line with a Chaos fleet, but otherwise it'd be distinctive.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:23 am 
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It's an improvement but really, I can see the prow remaining but the speed going down to 20 cm. Sorry, but that's just the case here. You captured a Gothic and you never replaced the engines, otherwise, it would be simpler in both game cost and fluff economics to stick to a Devastation. By Engines, I mean IN ones because the Chaos designs are more efficient. You might have removed the prow armor but you decided to up the range of the lances to 45 cm. that's a serious drain in engine performance exceeding the prow mass you removed. Lances are very much dependent on the engines for their strength more than WBs.

My best feel for this ship is still keeping the prow armor (because it's on the model and because in fluff, as you said, you wouldn't remove it anyway). Reduce speed to 20 cm. And since the engine of a Gothic is really not all that powerful, Str 2@30 cm lances+Str1@45 cm lance or Str 2@45 cm lances. If you want, you add FP6@45 dorsal WBs as this may still be possible although again you are overloading the Gothic as it is I feel.

And fine I will agree to the Dreadclaws although I would think even with Chaos forcing its launch bays onto a different chassis, there would be other factors involved in using ABs that might not make them suitable.
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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:00 am 
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In another topic about this model someone suggested the Slaughter's engines replacing the Gothic's, minus the extra 1d6 on AAF. This works for me, although I can still see 20cm being pretty ... useful, I suppose, as a pairing with the Repulsive, however I'd prefer to keep it at 25cm with the above explanation.

As far as engine draining and what have you - that's beyond me, I be but a simple folk. I merely want gameplay instead of 'historical' accuracy.

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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:02 am 
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Quote (Xisor @ 08 Jan. 2006 (22:57))
A suggestion on modelling/painting to fit the 'class' ideally, paint it's prow like you would a Repulsive Class' rather than how you'd do an Imperial 'Armoured' Prow. That way it'd look a *bit* more in line with a Chaos fleet, but otherwise it'd be distinctive.

What you see in the photo looks pretty good with the rest of the fleet, despite it not being finished. No problem if it sticks out - it's meant to :D

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:30 am 
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Quote (Spoonfed @ 09 Jan. 2006 (00:00))
In another topic about this model someone suggested the Slaughter's engines replacing the Gothic's, minus the extra 1d6 on AAF. This works for me, although I can still see 20cm being pretty ... useful, I suppose, as a pairing with the Repulsive, however I'd prefer to keep it at 25cm with the above explanation.

As far as engine draining and what have you - that's beyond me, I be but a simple folk. I merely want gameplay instead of 'historical' accuracy.

Sticking a Slaughter's engine onto another chassis is not an easy thing to do. The Scartix coil was designed with the form factor of the old cruiser hulls in mind. Redesigning the systems will prove very, very difficult.

Imagine trying to stick a F1 engine into a BMW/Benz chassis and you get the picture. What more a whole 3km long ship's engines?

I understand you want to have a powerful ship but unfortunately, that's the gist of it. You got an inefficient IN ship and want it to perform like an efficient Chaos ship with uprated armor and weapon ranges. Sorry, it won't work.

If your friend agrees, then hat's off to him. But if you want us to comment on it favorably, no, there will be people like me who will object if only for love of the game and its fluff and balance.
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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:02 am 
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I didn't set out to build, and certainly don't want, a powerful ship. And I certainly don't mean to come across as a powergamer or someone after favourable comments (many misassumptions on your part there), it just irks me when people take games, as I say, Too Far, Too Seriously, aesthetically. I'm not fussed if the model is 'unexplainable' and not 100% 'accurate' in your eyes, because at the end of the day, t'is a game.  If you're unhappy about that, my apologies :laugh:

As yet, I haven't played a game with it. If it does turn out to be far too powerful, as you say, then it will probably be editted. With the current editted stats, it seems reasonable.




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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:40 am 
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Yes it is only a game and yes, one shouldn't take it too far but have I really presented anything to you which is too far?

You may not have started out to want a powerful ship but it's what I am reading right now. I've explained the reasons in both stats and fluff why the ship cannot be so but you still want it your way, ignoring both the fluff and the game stats.

It's easy to say, "oh ok, so I have this hybrid IN ship that I want in my Chaos fleet so I will stick Scartix engines in it and increase the range of the lances (whilst keeping it strong) to 45 to 60 and while we're at it, I'll keep the prow armor and torps and add more turrets" without even thinking what limitations one needs to put in.

By putting it here, you are in effect asking us what we think of it and so we post our comments. We can't insist on you using our suggestions on what ultimately is your model but at least we hope for you to see that BFG is a game of balance and that well thought out ships are much better because more people will play them. I would be happier if that happens more than you just having that nice model.
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:42 am 
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Wel, I agree more with the Admiral on the subject I must add that you did build a hybrid ship, thus you could use best of both worlds, as long as the ship is pointed correctly you can play with it, as unfluffy as it may seem.

Bob Henderson from the BFG High Admirality (Rules Review) even said he was there to watch balance in gameplay and didn't care about background. However, for future projects, keep in mind gamebalance doesn't come down to 1 ship being (un)balanced or not but to the total fleet balance. Like Chaos is a no-torpedo fleet & no light cruiser fleet, IN is about the prow, the torps & work together, Tau (ECF) is ordnance not shooting and so on.

I like your new stats better, try it at 25cm, I think it will play well that way. 20cm is fluffier. :)

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Spoonfed
 Post subject: Repugnant class
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:45 pm 
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Admiral, my apologies to you.

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