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Skyray
nealhunt	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:24 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Skyrays and ion cannon hammerheads can be attached to a wide range of formations and provide long range AA.  There are also a number of random "token" AA shots like the ones on the Manta. If you factor in the experimental +1 to hit for intereception, the Barracudas are the equal of Nightwings only with slightly shorter range. So, yeah.  I think it's possible to have just as much air dominance with the Tau as with Eldar. _________________ Neal
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Tactica	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:25 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Ehem... Wow, did this thread derail! Ok, I've seen lots of speculation here. 1) What if - space marine thunderhawk assault... 2) maybe tau close to eldar air power/defense 3) maybe Eldar air power/defense increase etc... Tactica hops on soapbox First, how about we back all the speculation up with quantifiable data in a separate thread called - is Tau airpower/defense too strong? That would take all that conversation out of the Skyray thread. No offense guys, but CS started this thread to say - 4.3.2 is close (its a vault list, not the final - we all know that) Question: what should the skyray look like in 4.3.2... if there are extenuating circumstances impacting the decision, that's fine, let's address those in a seperate area - otherwise, this thread will completely lose focus. The markerlight issue affecting aircraft seems to have already been addressed - but perhaps not. Question: If it doesn't need to change for v4.3.2 - then lets not change it. I think many of us would like to table the small stuff and get the next vault list out there. To rehash major concepts in the list, like what markerlights affect - is going to push back development even further. Afterall, WIP v4.2.8 works. v4.3.2 is heavily mirroring that. My vote - lets tweak v4.3.2, get v4.3.2 officially done, and get it to the vault. Thread derailment and debating speculation is only going to hold things up unnecessarily. Tactica hops off soapbox Sorry... rough day at work. I've had to deal with one too many morons at partnered firms. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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nealhunt	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:39 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	No offense guys, but CS started this thread to say - 4.3.2 is close (its a vault list, not the final - we all know that) Question: what should the skyray look like in 4.3.2... The amount of total air dominance desired in the list is a relevant factor to what Skyray stat options should be considered. _________________ Neal

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Tactica

Post subject: Skyray Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:16 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

NH, For list balance - yes, fully agree with you Sir. For what the skyray should have for its points and role it should have in the list - no, I disagree with you. CS had a premis for this SkyRay thread... If the current restriction on markerlights not affecting aircraft remains, there is the possibility to increase the AA punch of this vehicle to compensate. As far as I see it, there are a nuber of issues: With that in mind, he posted three options. Well, if the premis is invoked, it causes us to go way back in the development stages as the premis: 1) Lowers the value of markerlights across the entire list and impacts several units - reasoning, the enemy doesn't fear ground based markers anymore. 2) Lowers the value of any AA GM 6+ on any unit in the list. Each of those units weapons and points now would have to be recalculated. 3) It would impact the relative AA cover the list can provide today as a whole, as the combination of 1 and 2 above are the majority of where our AA comes from. So since CS wants to know how the Skyray would look without markerlights affecting aircraft... we can talk in theory all we want too about the relative impact tau may or may not have on a striking thunderhawk with marines... but its completely irrilivent to the premis of the thread. How much aircover the tau currently do or don't have is also irrilevent if markerlights don't affect aircraft, what the list can or cannot do 'today' would be changing. How the skyray would operate is - well, a completely seperate issue under these new terms. Just like each and every other unit affected would be. Cheers, _________________ Rob

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Honda	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	I have to agree with Tactica. If you go back to the first few pages of this thread, most of the discussion revolved around: 1. Why was AA-ML removed? 2. What should the Skyray look like given IA3 and the rumors coming from the new codex This then got into a "technology" discussion, which now has us debating "look and feel" vs. other lists. Item #1 appears to be back to where it was, however, we did not solve the stat line issue for the Skyray. So far, I'm still waiting to hear something relevant about points application. I suspect that there is more feeling about this unit because very few people were fielding them, hence we are dealing with beliefs vs. observations. So, if Skyrays are not where they should be at, what capabilities (reasonable ones, not "Oh and take off your Warlord titan, I rolled a three") should the vehicle have and at what cost? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:42 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Unfortuently the only experience i have vs Tau AA was with two thunderbolts. They were restricted to a very small section of the table due to the long range of the tau gear. The eldar simply keep me off the table due to the prevailance of long range flak and the intergral flak on titans and stuff, plus the eldar tend to be aggressive/mobile. If the Tau had done the same rather than a long range firefight I would have been shut down again. Then again 2 paper machety fighters are hardly the best test _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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RedDevil	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm Posts: 112	Just another observation:  It seams that Tau are the only race that have to be "realistic".  I think this is unfair.  You don't hear these kind of debates happening on the SM, or Necron, or Tyranids boards.  They are more concerned with Fun, and Fluff.  Maybe we should take the same point of view, and just accept that there is nothing realistic about 40k, and instead focus on making stuff feel Tau'ish, at the sake of bending physics once and a while. Half the fun of these games is they run by the imagination, and the impossible all of a sudden become possible!
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Steele	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:02 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	I fully agree with You RedDevil. After all we all know that Santa is a disguised Ethereal, isn?t he? Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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CyberShadow	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:22 am
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9350 Location: Singapore	Quote (RedDevil @ 18 Dec. 2005 (20:50)) Just another observation: ?It seams that Tau are the only race that have to be "realistic". ?I think this is unfair. ?You don't hear these kind of debates happening on the SM, or Necron, or Tyranids boards. ?They are more concerned with Fun, and Fluff. ?Maybe we should take the same point of view, and just accept that there is nothing realistic about 40k, and instead focus on making stuff feel Tau'ish, at the sake of bending physics once and a while. I partially agree with this. I don think that we should be over-concerned about this list being 'realistic' - as much as this could be applied to conflict with aliens in the 41st Millenium. However, logically is a different matter and I think that we should do what we can to make the list feel coherent and make sense within the context. The more we stick to a list that can be related to, and one which hangs together as logical, the more fun this will be to play and the easiest to become emersed in it all. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Tactica	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	So.... to bring this full circle CS... My understanding is 1) markerlights will continue to affect things as normal i.e. land and aircraft. 2) Skyray... ? Assuming 1, is there any reason the skyray needs to change from v4.2.8 WIP list? 2x Hunters, 1 seeker, ML, burst cannons? Seems to work in the tests thus far. _________________ Rob
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CyberShadow	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:02 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9350 Location: Singapore	OK. To consolidate another thread... Proposals for the next version of the list are: 1. Remove the limitation of using Markerlights against aircraft. 2. Change the Skyray to 75 points, keep the chasis the same but change the weapon fit to: Smart Missile System - 30cm - AP4+ 2x Hunter Missiles - 75cm - AA5+ 2x Seeker Missiles - 75cm - AT6+ - Guided missile Can we playtest that and get a feel for it? _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Tactica

Post subject: Skyray Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:18 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (CyberShadow @ 19 Dec. 2005 (15:02)) 2. Change the Skyray to 75 points, keep the chasis the same but change the weapon fit to: Smart Missile System - 30cm - AP4+ 2x Hunter Missiles - 75cm - AA5+ 2x Seeker Missiles - 75cm - AT6+ - Guided missile Can we playtest that and get a feel for it? I'll be happy to playtest this one if it goes into 4.3.2. I'm very much apposed to to option 1. above for reasons previously expressed. Cheers, _________________ Rob

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Steele	Post subject: Skyray Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Me too, although I fear that my next scheduled game will be in the first Week of January. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Honda

Post subject: Skyray Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:39 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

2. Change the Skyray to 75 points, keep the chasis the same but change the weapon fit to: Smart Missile System - 30cm - AP4+ 2x Hunter Missiles - 75cm - AA5+ 2x Seeker Missiles - 75cm - AT6+ - Guided missile Can we playtest that and get a feel for it? I too, support this change. In fact, my son (10 yrs) who redesigned his UM list to include 2 x Thunderbolts + 2 x Marauders has probably ensured that I start taking this puppy, if only to keep from getting blasted off of the board on Turn 1. Seeing as how I only have 2 x Barracuda squadrons, I'll need something to redress the imbalance. I think the Skyray in this configuration will get us to the more interesting discussion of, "So how many of these do you take?" _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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clausewitz

Post subject: Skyray Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:52 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland

More than happy to try this version.  Especially as it is really close to what I suggested last month Posted: 18 Nov. 2005 (19:43)     My suggestion.. TAU SKYRAY AIR DEFENCE GUNSHIP Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 30cm 4+ 6+ 6+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes 2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AT6+/AA5+ Guided Missiles Notes: Skimmer, Markerlights 75 Points. Just the AT/AA parts of the weapons are now separated and the SMS retained

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