Manta Missile Destroyer |
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer  Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:25 pm |
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The biovores are also a work in progress. GUO is not BP, but it is a template.
In any case, the question was whether anyone saw a potential issue.
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Neal
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:22 pm |
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Even if it is precedent-setting, all you have to do to justify it is say 'remember the scene from predator, where they're just mowing down the jungle? How about the scene from Blackhawk Down where the brass is just raining out of the helo, onto a couple of grunts? Same kind of guns.'
I don't see a problem. Actually, I see some 'Nid guns getting Disrupt as a result, for similar fluff reasons.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:44 pm |
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Lion- I would have to agree. Makes perfect sense to me. I would definitely see some bugs with this configuration actually now that you mention it....
living ammo in the latest version of the nids we have for reference can lay a scary amount of fire and not have a chance at ever hurting a vehicle.
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Rob
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:20 pm |
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Played with 2 Mantas yesterday. I have to say I think they are tough enough and have enough firepower to be pretty close to the right point value.
I do, however, think they need a better FF (along with the Moray).
The basic idea from long ago was that Tau get to use short range fire that in other armies would be relegated to Small Arms and in return, they lose some FF ability. Typically, this is -1 from what their FF ability would be based on their armament.
Personally, I think that a Manta's armament would put it at least at a 3+FF, and possibly at a 2+FF based on the large number of 15cm shots it has.
In light of that, I don't think a 4+FF value is out of line.
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Neal
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Steele
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:44 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 28 Nov. 2005 (16:20)) | Played with 2 Mantas yesterday. ?I have to say I think they are tough enough and have enough firepower to be pretty close to the right point value.
I do, however, think they need a better FF (along with the Moray).
The basic idea from long ago was that Tau get to use short range fire that in other armies would be relegated to Small Arms and in return, they lose some FF ability. ?Typically, this is -1 from what their FF ability would be based on their armament.
Personally, I think that a Manta's armament would put it at least at a 3+FF, and possibly at a 2+FF based on the large number of 15cm shots it has.
In light of that, I don't think a 4+FF value is out of line. |
Neal,
I asked for upping the FF Values quite a time ago, but a couple of people thought that would give them to much power. Upping at least the Manta would alllow more Spice in Planetfalling at the opposite Table edge, giving the deployed troops a better survivabillity while disembarking. For me as an offensive player this would retake the Battle to the other Table edge earlier in the Game, giving my enemy something to chew on.
Cheers!
Steele
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asaura
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:11 pm |
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I opposed improving the Moray's and Manta's FF values on the basis that it could make them too good at supporting assaults, which seemed out of character for the Tau. I have never played with the Manta, though.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:20 pm |
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Offensively, I dont' think assault support is an issue. Tau are still going to be pretty bad.
OTOH, defensively, laying down the proverbial "wall of lead" seems like a reasonable Tau reaction and it would still less effective than similar tactics by other armies. I could see, for instance, Tau jetpack troops withdrawing to the cover of the Manta's turrets when threatened with close assault.
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Steele
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:59 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 28 Nov. 2005 (18:20)) | Offensively, I dont' think assault support is an issue. ?Tau are still going to be pretty bad.
OTOH, defensively, laying down the proverbial "wall of lead" seems like a reasonable Tau reaction and it would still less effective than similar tactics by other armies. ?I could see, for instance, Tau jetpack troops withdrawing to the cover of the Manta's turrets when threatened with close assault. |
Are you reading my thoughts?
Cheers!
Steele
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:25 pm |
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Um... no... why would you think that?
Now, if you'll just look over there at the red light my partner K is holding... 
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Neal
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Tactica
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:49 am |
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NH - I have the same concern Asaura does on this front.
I agree with you and Steele in principle, but I'm concerned that we encoruage the wrong tactic with the Manta and moray if we get too good with the FF values.
I think the Moray as a stand alone force without troops should definitely stay at FF 5+ as I don't want to see someone use this as a stand along 2 unit 6 hit formation with which to assault with on FF 4+.
I would not be appossed to trying the Manta out at 4+ FF though. It does seem like it principly would have a horrendous amount of FF potential. Also, at the higher points total, it would balance itself out a bit with the better FF.
So if we are to try FF 4+ on any unit, the Manta would probably be the best place to start and the only place I would initially be on board with considering if the masses wanted to see that playtested.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers,
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Rob
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Steele
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:38 am |
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Yes, as I am a friend of the Larger Games where I field the Manta, I would like to playtest it.
Cheers!
Steele
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Tastyfish
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:23 pm |
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Just one quick point relating to Mantas - looking at the IA3 stat for their 40K versions, the burstcannons are long barreled with 36" range rather than being normal 18" ones.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:33 pm |
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| Quote (Tastyfish @ 29 Nov. 2005 (15:23)) | | Just one quick point relating to Mantas - looking at the IA3 stat for their 40K versions, the burstcannons are long barreled with 36" range rather than being normal 18" ones. |
Tastyfish,
I agree and we've discussed this in the past. Its one of the questions on the table about the Manta in my notes.
Previously, we agreed to table it until the rest of the list filled out and the current changes from v4.1 can receive ample playtesting.
Good call though TF.
In the interum, what say you on FF4+ on the Manta?
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Tastyfish
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:03 pm |
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I'd don't think I would improve it, the Manta is for extending your deployment zone whilst the Orca is more for 'hot drops'. The low FF value combined with the long range I think would encourage you not to let things get too close to it.
The fact that the vehicles bay is on an elevator, according to the background, makes it sound as if its actually quite vunerable whilst its unloading. On top of this there is the fact its shields don't work up close and there looks like there is quite a few blind spots in its weapon arcs that small things (people and landspeeders rather than the interceptors its designed to deal with) could take advantage of
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Manta Missile Destroyer Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:57 pm |
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Moray - I agree on 5+FF. It's 6+ in 4.3.1, and that's what I was going from.
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Neal
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